• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Premiership to expants to 14 teams and be ringfenced?

A little off topic but i think that a national representative competition could be very beneficial to England.

I know quite a few English guys who were very focused on rugby during their school days who have a lot of talent, whom once cut off from the Academy system pretty much gave up on competitive rugby. The problem is under the national and club academy system it is quite disjointed in England from what i can gather.

Imagine if these top aspirational guys in the Champ were mixed with academy prospects and academy squad members from the premiership and top county and regional players from around England. It would create a great competitive environment and a great showcase to aspire to.

If there was a coordinated approach under the pro level to foster and nurture talent for the Premiership and national squad then a lot more talent would be kept in the game. Obviously it would have to be integrated into the English structure, you can't simply copy NZ's NPC or SA's Currie/Varsity cup.
 
Didn't want to create a new thread....

BT and PRL have extended their coverage contract for extra cash and until 2021.... without going to tender.

In light of the recent situation in France surely Sky (or someone else) will challenge the legality of this?
 
So, article in the Indie today - http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...put-case-for-a-rugby-revolution-10179675.html

Am I convinced? It's awfully short on detail on just how the Championship benefit. I think the two main things for those who don't want to keep scrolling down/click is a) It will be temporary b) The other parties involved must agree.



Stephen Vaughan knows it will be a hard sell; that the argument for a temporary suspension of promotion and relegation to and from an expanded Aviva Premiership will have to be extraordinarily convincing to persuade the vast majority of rugby union followers in England that this is not a brazen attempt by the strong to enrich themselves at the expense of the weak. Especially as the top-flight clubs have just negotiated an 80 per cent hike in broadcasting money from BT Sport. But the Gloucester chief executive is an eloquent supporter of the most significant change to the way the professional club game is run in the world's biggest union-playing nation since the late 1980s, when leagues were first sanctioned by the governing body at Twickenham.
"We see this as a move that will ultimately create more opportunities for more clubs, rather than the other way round," he said this week. "The worst-case scenario is that we continue as we are."
Vaughan sees this as the moment for bold decisionmaking. "Premier Rugby [the top-flight clubs' administative body] are in the process of discussing a new long-term agreement with the Rugby Football Union; we have a home World Cup heading our way this autumn; we have our new European tournaments up and running; the domestic television deal is in place; we believe there is fresh investment money out there if we can offer the right product. If ever there was a good time to take our game to another level, this is it."
If they are to make their great leap forward as great as it can be, the Premiership clubs believe promotion and relegation must be placed on the back-burner for at least three years, and possibly as long as five years.
They claim the gulf between the elite teams and the vast majority of the clubs currently playing in the second-tier Greene King IPA Championship is widening by the day, and that with a small handful of notable exceptions - Bristol, Worcester and Yorkshire Carnegie, each of whom have retained a Premiership shareholding from previous seasons in the top league - they are in no position to compete. For evidence, they point to the torments suffered by London Welsh over the last eight, utterly joyless months of winless futility.
Those who support the expansion of the current 12-team Premiership into a 14-team tournament from the end of next season - a move that would allow all three of those Championship clubs to be incorporated - say the door should then be slammed shut, and stay shut until, after an agreed period, the position is "reviewed", a word that will strike opponents as chillingly vague.
"The most important thing to make clear," Vaughan said, "is that none of this is Premier Rugby's decision and theirs alone. This only goes through if all the stakeholders agree [including the RFU and Championship clubs] that the change reflects the financial and competitive reality in which we find ourselves.
"So let's look coldly and clearly at the current situation. A full house watching Gloucester at Kingsholm, a packed crowd for Leicester at Welford Road, a rocking Recreation Ground when Bath are playing these things are highly attractive to the top foreign players, the broadcasters, the sponsors and investors. We want to introduce new minimum standards criteria aimed at improving what is already an outstanding product, and if I'm honest, the clubs outside a 14-team Premiership who might be able to meet those criteria in the short term would be few and far between. We're talking about infrastructure, support base, finances we're talking about genuine ambition.
"Of course, the absence of relegation for a period of time would make it easier for the Premiership clubs to attract new investment. We're looking for fresh investment ourselves and one thing business likes is a sense of stability. But I believe a move in this direction would give ambitious clubs outside the 14 the time and space to prepare themselves for the realities of life in the top league.
"A five-year moratorium would certainly offer them that space. We want to welcome those who demonstra-bly have the wherewithal to be something bigger and better than good one year and awful the next. If you win promotion under the current system but then don't win a game, it kills your support base and makes investors run away."
All fine and dandy, so far as it goes. But what about the obvious downsides: more dead games in the bottom half of a relegation-free league; the lack of clarity on whether promotion would ever be restored, or whether the Premiership ***ans would simply opt for further expansion as and when it suited them; the tacit acceptance - deeply wounding for English rugby, given its playing numbers and financial resources - that the country cannot sustain two competitive professional leagues? "If we were like France - if we had seven or eight wellsupported clubs in the Second Division who had all the right ingredients for top-flight rugby and wanted to come up - I'm sure none of this would have come under discussion in the first place," Vaughan said. "But we're not like France and we don't have those clubs.
"I happen to think that the Championship teams would benefit from a much closer relationship with Premier Rugby: that we should bring together the two leagues and have them run by the same people, along the lines of the set-up in France. After all, Premier Rugby is run by the clubs, for the clubs. But we would need a gargantuan change of heart from the RFU for that to happen."
There is one other obvious point of weakness in the expansion argument - or at least, there will be if the freemarket fundamentalists in the current top flight, Saracens and Bath among them, succeed in abolishing the salary cap that has been such a valuable equalising force since the founding of the Premiership in 1997. A free market, run within the confines of a closed shop? Would that not be philosophically incoherent, as well as nakedly self-serving? "No one is saying that we want a closed shop, and anyway, we at Gloucester strongly support the continuation of a salary-cap system," Vaughan responded. "I think it would be very damaging for English rugby if it were to be removed completely." In saying this, he stood squarely alongside the Harlequins rugby director, Conor O'Shea, who last weekend warned of a profoundly damaging "arms race" in the event of a complete untying of the purse strings.
He did, however, concede ground on the "dead games" argument. "It's hard to argue with that," acknowledged the chief executive, "but please believe me when I say that we've thought long and hard about all of this. A lot of us don't find the prospect of a relegation moratorium easy to swallow, because it's so deep-rooted in the culture of English team sport.
"It's why so much of the detail of any change is still up for discussion, not just amongst ourselves but with everyone who has a legitimate voice. This can't happen if it doesn't work for the Championship clubs as well as those of us in the Premiership."
 
There are some fair points raised, but either Vaughan's plan is very poorly thought out, or it has been very poorly reported. The following snippet is laughable:

"They claim the gulf between the elite teams and the vast majority of the clubs currently playing in the second-tier Greene King IPA Championship is widening by the day, and that with a small handful of notable exceptions – Bristol, Worcester and Yorkshire Carnegie"

Bristol and Worcester are indeed a class above the rest of the division and whichever is promoted will almost certainly fare better than London Welsh have this season. Mentioning Leeds in the same breath is laughable - they are currently languishing in the bottom half of The GKIPA Championship table, they're got a revolving door through which coaches pass with frightening frequency, and a CEO who spent the last five years being bounced around from club to club without success. They're heavily reliant on Leeds Met's involvement, their average league attendance is under two thousand (compared to 7.7k at Bristol and 5.5k at Worcester) and they don't have primacy of tenure over Headingly, which lead to them playing 3 league matches on the road last season at grounds like Cross Green in Otley and meant that one home match had to be replayed because the pitch wasn't up to being scrummaged on! None of this ties in with the high standards Vaughan claims that the AP is aspiring to, which leads me to the conclusion that the motive is good ol' boys looking after each other, rather than doing what is best for the league.

Secondly, there are currently 12 AP clubs, plus three old friends who the big boys still want to play with. If the plan goes ahead as intended at the end of next season, how are 15 clubs (12 AP, plus the chosen three) going to be squeezed into a 14 team league? The most likely scenario is that either Worcester or Bristol will be playing in the AP next season in place of LW. At the end of next season, the promoted side will be among the favourites for demotion along with Newcastle and maybe London Irish. What happens then? Presumably the top three in the GKIPA will be promoted to make up the new 14 team AP, how do we know the two remaining teams of the chosen three will be among them? What if the other one of the chosen three is demoted from the AP? If not, what about the other side with a "rightful place in the AP", are they stuck the the GKIPA for a minimum of three years? My suspicion is that the plan will be to make sure that other Championship sides would be barred from promotion by some quickly, stealthily dreamed up minimum standards criteria, but I wouldn't back this working - IIRC Nottingham have a contingency plan to move back to Meadow Lane and Rotherham may well have to find a new home anyway, presumably in South Yorkshire they could come up with a suitable stadium.

If London Welsh's plight this season has been so terrible for the league, why not look at ways of reducing the difficulties and inequality faced by newly promoted sides? How do we know that one of the newly promoted sides (here's looking at you Leeds) won't end up suffering a similar plight and be stuck there for three seasons?

What are the chances of this proposal surviving a legal challenge? London Welsh are rather good at mounting them for obvious reasons.

We have already seen massive hypocrisy from Tony Rowe with his u-turn on ring fencing, the only way I can see The Championship turkeys voting for Christmas is if the AP throw pots of money at them. It will be interesting to see if such hypocrisy is confined to the AP!

Sorry for the diatribe - a bit of a brain dump that probably doesn't read very well!
 
I think they're relying on the Championship clubs to agree to this to get over any legal hurdles/the wrong club getting promoted. If the Championship clubs want to disagree, then that's that for the plan.

Still, I think some elements of your post point to why there's some wheels to this. You mention Nottingham moving back to Meadow Lane - how much would that cost them? Does Nottingham have the money to move back to Meadow Lane and recruit a decent enough addition to their squad to avoid going straight back down in shame? Ditto Rotherham and their potential relocation. Being in the Premiership allegedly cost London Welsh £4m - would it be any different for most Championship clubs? Most Championship clubs do need an infrastructure upgrade if they are to be Premiership clubs and doing that in a hurry is expensive. Yorkshire are a mess, but they do at least have the infrastructure in place.

Would a period of 3-5 years with no promotion help build that infrastructure though? That's the rub. I'm not sure what about the situation invites investment, particularly as the Championship would still be suffering from relegation. Obviously clubs can afford to be a little mean on the playing staff costs if not chasing promotion, but not by too much, or elsewise fans will stop coming. My guess is that for the Championship clubs to agree to this, PRL and the RFU will have to agree to put up the investment themselves. That could make sense.

And yes, I think Yorkshire would probably suffer in their first season back up and probably the second too - but that's the idea about ringfencing. Yorkshire don't have to chuck everything into survival-first rugby - they get to build up a squad and a crowd over a couple of seasons with no risk which should, in theory, strengthen the club immensely. London Welsh are currently suffering because they're not a team. A promoted club mightn't be in their first season, but they bloody well should be in the second.

PRL definitely need to offer concentrate evidence on how it will be good for the Championship though.
 
Both Nottingham and Rotherham would be a disaster in the AP, which is one of the reasons why I am questioning how well thought through the plan is! Also London Welsh will be back in the GKIPA to throw a spanner in the works next season.

I follow your argument regarding a three year stay of execution giving a team like Leeds time to build a business, but you have more faith in the club than me! If it works for Leeds, great, but what happens to the business that's left on the outside looking in for the ring-fencing period?

I'm still unclear on quite whose decision this is to make. Assuming it's one vote per club I guess the PRL are relying on the three votes from Leeds, Bristol and Worcester tipping the odds in their favour which may well work. I'd be surprised if the RFU don't want a say in things, so too the NCA clubs.
 
Last edited:
Both Nottingham and Rotherham would be a disaster in the AP, which is one of the reasons why I am questioning how well thought through the plan is! Also London Welsh will be back in the GKIPA to throw a spanner in the works next season.

I follow your argument regarding a three year stay of execution giving a team like Leeds time to build a business, but you have more faith in the club than me! If it works for Leeds, great, but what happens to the business that's left on the outside looking in for the ring-fencing period?

I'm still unclear on quite whose decision this is to make. Assuming it's one vote per club I guess the PRL are relying on the three votes from Leeds, Bristol and Worcester tipping the odds in their favour which may well work. I'd be surprised if the RFU don't want a say in things, so too the NCA clubs.

? Nottingham/Rotherham/London Welsh wouldn't be in the AP in this plan. I think you're referring the possibility of them accidentally getting promoted at the wrong time - I think PRL plan on simply ignoring promotion/relegation that season and picking the clubs they want.

And I'm having faith in the principle, not the club there!

Going from the article - the RFU and the Championship both have a say. It seems to be a joint decision. PRL can push and propose, but can't just do it without agreement. There's another article on the Indie website in which its said that Stuart Lancaster and Bill Beaumont are regarded as the key people needed on board to make the idea work - if they, and therefore the RFU back the idea, then there'll be enough support to get the idea going. If they don't, the RFU says no, and PRL can go spin on it. That's the impression I'm getting.

As you say - what happens to those on the outside looking in is the big question.
 
I have mixed impressions:

In favour:
  • Ring-fencing provides financial stability to the clubs that yo-yo between Premiership and Championship. It's not safe to be changing your wage bill by two extremes, especially as the disparity in wage bills required by the two leagues increases.
  • Ring-fencing provides more certainty to investors. (Touched upon in the article.)
  • There are only 16 clubs that have been in the Premiership within the last 15 years - the 12 Premiership clubs, Worcester, Bristol, Yorkshire and Rotherham. Of these, Rotherham cannot compete. It would then be a matter of picking between Welsh and Yorkshire on the account of what case they can put forward for growing their club.
  • As a result of excluding the yo-yoing teams, the Championship is a much more competitive place.

Against:
  • Four extra rounds of fixtures.
  • The lack of incentive of going up may deter investors for Championship teams. It would effectively rule out another Exeter happening.
  • The clubs chosen for the Premiership will grow faster than the rest. It would be vital that we picked the "right" teams for the Premiership from the beginning, because it will be difficult to integrate others later.
  • Likewise, as the gap between the two leagues will further increase, we may struggle to bring relegation back. The teams at the bottom of the Premiership may find themselves just too far ahead of the Championship teams.

If we move to ring-fencing, in order to deter end-of-season apathy for teams in the bottom half of the league, I'd set up a second competition. The top 6 teams compete for the Premiership trophy. (Top two places get home semi, like in Super League.) The next 6 teams compete for a second-tier trophy, which would also give them the chance to enter the top European league the next season. There would then be a push to finish higher all the way through the league.
 
Last edited:
? Nottingham/Rotherham/London Welsh wouldn't be in the AP in this plan. I think you're referring the possibility of them accidentally getting promoted at the wrong time - I think PRL plan on simply ignoring promotion/relegation that season and picking the clubs they want.

In that case, they're pushing it far too far. Where's the credibility in potentially promoting a bottom half club? From a legal point of view, how could they expect to get away with it?

Going from the article - the RFU and the Championship both have a say. It seems to be a joint decision. PRL can push and propose, but can't just do it without agreement. There's another article on the Indie website in which its said that Stuart Lancaster and Bill Beaumont are regarded as the key people needed on board to make the idea work - if they, and therefore the RFU back the idea, then there'll be enough support to get the idea going. If they don't, the RFU says no, and PRL can go spin on it. That's the impression I'm getting.

As you say - what happens to those on the outside looking in is the big question.

Getting down to brass tacks, from an RFU point of view, the question is what impact would this have on player development? The article doesn't even touch on how the additional 4 games would be shoehorned into the season. My guess would be at the expense of the LV Cup, which may be a concern for the RFU (meaning academy lads get less game time).
 
Expansion teams are another way in which you can keep investment at lower levels flowing. If a team has consistent top 2 finishes (for e.g) over x amount of years and shows a business plan that is sustainable and well funded then they can apply to join the Prem. I would hope Prem keeps up some line of funding to Championship though.
 
I do - cons outweight the pros IMO.
Like I say though, I would prefer to see a slightly different geographical spread of teams than we would have according to that article.

As long as this doesn't lead to a net increase in domestic games then I'm all for it.

I would have to disagree with this mate. They tried this in RL, for the same reasons given, that turned out to be a disaster as the bottom few clubs just didn't invest, so in the 3 years it ran it had already started to show a two tier frame in the league.

Not saying it wouldn't work in RU but the same pros and cons where given for it in RL and it turned out to actually have far more cons than pros in practise.
 
I would have to disagree with this mate. They tried this in RL, for the same reasons given, that turned out to be a disaster as the bottom few clubs just didn't invest, so in the 3 years it ran it had already started to show a two tier frame in the league.

There isn't one already?
 
You lost me there!

They set the Super League up with no relegation, it lasted 3 years and it was a massive flop. So they have changed it to a very odd set off play offs for this season onwards.
 
You lost me there!

They set the Super League up with no relegation, it lasted 3 years and it was a massive flop. So they have changed it to a very odd set off play offs for this season onwards.

He's saying the Aviva already has a them and us tier system..... as did the super league. So ring fencing wouldn't really have a big impact on that aspect of it.
 
My two pence- if this were to happen, every two years (or so, any length of time, tbh), I'd want to see an opportunity for clubs to challenge, i.e. the club with the most league points across the season, in the form of a series of three games in the off season with the last placed team. So relegation, basically, but less of a threat during the season and avoidable if the bottom placed team is actually better in terms of strength in depth, facilities, actual quality.

Basically, I don't want the premiership to be ring-fenced, but I do want relegation to be dependent- it gets my goat how London Welsh replaced Worcester last season.
 
London Welsh deserved to replace Worcester last year as they won the playoff. As Worcester deserves to replace London Welsh this year. Best would be a British and Irish league with London Welsh and London Scottish classed as celtic teams. Then PRL could promote who they wanted then.
 
He's saying the Aviva already has a them and us tier system..... as did the super league. So ring fencing wouldn't really have a big impact on that aspect of it.

Right....I got ya.

Yeah there is split but just ring fencing it off with only make the "lower tier" not have to worry about relegation and focus less about on the pitch performances.

I have no issue with ring-fencing the league but doing it, which is suggested at present, the exact same way that the Super League did is only going to backfire like it did for them.

Copy and pasting one disaster is hardly a way forward for rugby.
 
I'm don't entirely agree that the league is two tier - the battle for top four and top six (and other than last season top eleven) means that there are few dead rubbers. Depending on where you say the cut off is between the two tiers, sides like Bath, Harlequins, Sale and Exeter have finished on either tier, which says to me that the league is pretty competitive. Saying that, I don't see why ring fencing should interfere with that aspect of the league other than possibly turning a few possible must win bottom of the table battles into dead rubbers.

My worry would be how to avoid perpetually uncompetitive teams. As it is, you have to go back to 09/10 to find an AP table that Newcastle finished above 11th in! I know that the pro-ring fencing argument is that it would enable them to invest without the worry of relegation to improve their lot, but does this really work? With the parachute payment in place, is relegation really that much of a disaster? IIRC over the last two seasons, their backer has written off significant losses. What happens if he gets bored of this and the club can't find someone else with similar patience and deep pockets? It's all very well to talk about "expansion" teams, but with Bristol and Leeds removed in the medium term, it's highly unlikely that anyone other than LW would be able to step up - we know how well it goes when LW step up!

I think that more financial controls over clubs spending would be necessary that would be palatable to many clubs in order to avoid a Super League style disaster.
 
The Rugby Paper: Where do you stand on plans for a 14-team Premiership?
Hopely: It's not going to happen!

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/feat...85/qa-with-rpa-chief-executive-damian-hopley/

Where do you stand on ring-fencing the Premiership then?

I think it's really important for teams to have access to the Premiership. If you ring-fence the Premiership it might give those teams some comfort, but our game in England is built on access, and promotion and relegation is necessary, whether you like it or not. Clearly what happened with London Welsh was a regrettable scenario last season but promotion and relegation is an integral part of what we do. Cornish Pirates have just got permission to build a new ground, which is fantastic news, so why shouldn't they have the opportunity to come up?
 

Latest posts

Top