Premiership to expants to 14 teams and be ringfenced?

[goodNumber10]

What do you think the English academies are?

Schools for Developing young players for the club who owns the academy.

what about late bloomers?

Wales' woes are more directly linked to a poor implementation of regionalisation and the disbanding of their premiership than ring-fencing.
Tigers fans aren't going to suddenly stop giving a **** about Leicester just because London Scottish have no hope of promotion.

The reality is that Wales isn't big enough to sustain professional clubs and regions simultaneously.

Yes, and that is exactly the point. The Welsh clubs with 100's of years of tradition have basically been emancipated by the formation of regions.- which in all senses and pruposes is exactly the same as ring fencing. Creating an elite level outside of the countries normal structures.

NZ, SA etc... have always been province based due to size and the problems of travel coupled with traditional inter-province rivalry. The system has always been pyramided to feed the Provincial sides, and people can work from the top to the bottom outside of the talent scout system. Clubs move up the ranks, then players move onto provinces.

Look essentially i think this is going to be one fo those discussion where we're just not going to eb able to see each others point - not because they aren't valid but because it's quite an emotive subject and people just feel things are wrong.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Schools for Developing young players for the club who owns the academy.

what about late bloomers?

The academies aren't "owned" by the clubs, they are run in conjunction with the clubs by the RFU.

Late-bloomers get signed from whoever they are playing for when they bloom.

This isn't an argument about the relative merits of the NZ system versus ours - the NZ system is clearly superior.
But I still fail to see how it is even relevant to your argument because they do not have promotion and relegation at the elite level?

Yes, and that is exactly the point. The Welsh clubs with 100's of years of tradition have basically been emancipated by the formation of regions.- which in all senses and pruposes is exactly the same as ring fencing. Creating an elite level outside of the countries normal structures.

Ringfencing is not the same as regionalisation at all.

In fact the Welsh premiership clubs still exist in their traditional form in a way that a "club" like Wasps doesn't.

The WRU/RRW's ballsing up of the regions is entirely irrelevant to the premiership.

 

[Peat]

We are the only major rugby country in the world, save France, who haven't implemented an elite ringfenced level. Holding up one example of how it can go is not, personally, very convincing.

I am not implacably for ringfencing. I am implacably for the best thing for the English game. If someone can persuade me that the current system is better than ring fencing, great. Personally, right now, I can see very definite advantages to ringfencing. I can see possible damage to the Championship. How much damage?

How much can the Championship be grown into a credible second tier? Where are the investors willing to try bankrolling Championship clubs to the Premiership who are not involved already? How much good would it do the likes of Rotherham to go up anyway? What if PRL says it will promote two teams up and expand the league in ten years time based on infrastructure and on the field success?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Agree entirely, Peat. Particularly as at this point in time any dramatic reorganisation of domestic rugby could allow the RFU/RPA to strongarm themselves into a position of strength/direct control over the domestic tournament.

According to Chris Jones: "Any ring-fencing of Prem wouldn't be permanent, Champ clubs could still "do an Exeter." Extra 2 teams in expanded Prem promoted on merit."

So... essentially it would be run as if the clubs were franchises.

 

[goodNumber10]

The academies aren't "owned" by the clubs, they are run in conjunction with the clubs by the RFU.

Late-bloomers get signed from whoever they are playing for when they bloom.

This isn't an argument about the relative merits of the NZ system versus ours - the NZ system is clearly superior.
But I still fail to see how it is even relevant to your argument because they do not have promotion and relegation at the elite level?

I never said they did.

I said they have that or a clear and transparent player path one promotion finishes.

Ringfencing is not in the same renationalisation at all.

In fact the Welsh premiership clubs still exist in their traditional form in a way that a "club" like Wasps don't.

The WRU/RRW's ballsing up of the regions is entirely irrelevant to the premiership.

It absolutely is below the elite level of the game.

If you can't see that I don't know how to explain it differently. No hope of promotion, No hope of Europe = no finances = death of competitive rugby below the Elite levels.

Look I really don't want to have a 10 page ruck over this. I just really think it's a bad idea, I've tried to explain why, you don't agree with me.

we just don't agree mate.

 

[goodNumber10]

We are the only major rugby country in the world, save France, who haven't implemented an elite ringfenced level. Holding up one example of how it can go is not, personally, very convincing.

I am not implacably for ringfencing. I am implacably for the best thing for the English game. If someone can persuade me that the current system is better than ring fencing, great. Personally, right now, I can see very definite advantages to ringfencing. I can see possible damage to the Championship. How much damage?

How much can the Championship be grown into a credible second tier? Where are the investors willing to try bankrolling Championship clubs to the Premiership who are not involved already? How much good would it do the likes of Rotherham to go up anyway? What if PRL says it will promote two teams up and expand the league in ten years time based on infrastructure and on the field success?

It's not one example. Look at Scotland?

The club game is drowning.

Two countries stepped in competitive sport with a pathway.

This would be done for noting other than money. Not for England.

And if there is a discrepancy between the two leagues now financially where do you think that will be in 10 years with promotion and the chance of large investment cut off?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I never said they did.

Yes, you did:

Schools for Developing young players for the club who owns the academy.

I said they have that or a clear and transparent player path one promotion finishes.

The player pathways you are talking about do not have promotion/relegation at the elite level - I'm not entirely sure what that sentence was supposed to mean.

The current England development pathway is not in any way reliant on promotion/relegation.
Kids get identified playing in county/regional sides which are select players from local clubs and/or schools, the EPDG players are all mostly known about by the time they are 14/15 and almost entirely bypass formal membership of the semi-pro/pro leagues below the premiership.

 

[goodNumber10]

Yes, you did:

No mate, my comment was about this:

But I still fail to see how it is even relevant to your argument because they do not have promotion and relegation at the elite level?

I never said they had promotion at the elite level. I just mean there is a clear pathway for players to progress through the rugby system without being in an academy, and the NRC in Australia is specifically designed to create a better pathway from grass routes to elite rugby.

The current England development pathway is not in any way reliant on promotion/relegation.
Kids get identified playing in county/regional sides which are select players from local clubs and/or schools, the EPDG players are all mostly known about by the time they are 14/15 and almost entirely bypass formal membership of the semi-pro/pro leagues below the premiership.

I never said they were reliant, i said there was a path way... you're putting words in where there weren't any.

Regardless, the current system compliments the academies, and players like Easter and Morgan etc... have a way of playing through the ranks and getting noticed.

Additionally those kids you mention play at junior clubs, if clubs are dwindling/on their knees because of this (and i do believe that will be the long term effect of ring fencing right throught he ranks) where do they start the rugby process except at school which further elitises (is that a word) the game.

 

[Tony Manx]

Any chance a Mod could correct the ***le!!!!

 

[Draggs]

Any chance a Mod could correct the ***le!!!!

Better?

 

[Tony Manx]

Expants?

 

[Draggs]

Ah, yes.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Would love to see the Premiership expanded. As for ring fencing, not so sure. Would like to see sides being able to compete for promotion (the Championship needs a better promotion system by the way). I wonder if they would use licenses and teams failing that would be relegated after two years or so.

 

[smartcooky]

So players already have too many demands on them in terms of domestic rugby matches played in a season and these numpties want to load them up with an extra four matches and extend the season by a month?

Whose brain explosion was this then?


Ring-fencing a club competition is a sure-fire way to kill the next levels down all the way to the grass roots. Your 14 Premiership clubs will suck up all the talent, and your lower levels will suffer the consequences of that!

 

[Peat]

I'd make a long and insightful post, but I'm tired, so I'm just asking the ***le be left as expants because that's funny.

 

[ratsapprentice]

So players already have too many demands on them in terms of domestic rugby matches played in a season and these numpties want to load them up with an extra four matches and extend the season by a month?

Whose brain explosion was this then?

Ring-fencing a club competition is a sure-fire way to kill the next levels down all the way to the grass roots. Your 14 Premiership clubs will suck up all the talent, and your lower levels will suffer the consequences of that!

The LV cup would almost certainly be discontinued (it's in it's last year of contract) so the total number of games would likely reduce.

The premiership clubs already "suck up" all the talent.

More details: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...gland-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-demands-say.html

 

[smartcooky]

The LV cup would almost certainly be discontinued (it's in it's last year of contract) so the total number of games would likely reduce.

OK, fair enough on that point, but

The premiership clubs already "suck up" all the talent.

I don't believe that. There are talented players in the RFU Championship who aspire to play Premiership rugby by helping their team to get promoted.

With ring-fencing, those players have no hope of advancement to the Premiership unless they leave their clubs. The only thing RFU Championship teams will have to look forward to in the future is their best players leaving for other clubs, declining sponsorships and falling incomes as the standard drops.

You need look no further than NZ to see what will happen.

At one time, our National Provincial Championship was the premier domestic rugby competition in the world alongside South Africa's Currie Cup. Since the advent of Super Rugby, the NPC has become a bit-part feeder competition, and when it was ringfinced itself, it condemned the 12 NZ provinces not included to forever having to run cake stalls to raise money.

 

[ratsapprentice]

With ring-fencing, those players have no hope of advancement to the Premiership unless they leave their clubs. The only thing RFU Championship teams will have to look forward to in the future is their best players leaving for other clubs, declining sponsorships and falling incomes as the standard drops.

That's essentially what happens now. The outstanding championship players are signed by premiership clubs if they fail to win promotion at the end of the season, and if they do gain promotion then the players who perform in the premiership are inevitably bought by the prem clubs when the newly promoted club gets relegated (actually regardless of whether they get relegated).

The only two clubs (possibly three - with Yorkshire) who look like bucking the trend of "one year up, then back down" are Bristol and Worcester and if they get relegated again once they gain promotion (again) then their wealthy owners may very well pull out.
Leaving none of the championship clubs in a position where they can compete with the premiership clubs.

At one time, our National Provincial Championship was the premier domestic rugby competition in the world alongside South Africa's Currie Cup. Since the advent of Super Rugby, the NPC has become a bit-part feeder competition, and when it was ringfinced itself, it condemned the 12 NZ provinces not included to forever having to run cake stalls to raise money.

Surely that's down to it becoming the second tier rather than the elite competition, not ringfencing?
The bottom half of the Championship can barely afford to be professional - Moseley's home attendances don't even average 1000.

 

[goodNumber10]

Mike Friday, alastair Eylhen and a ton of other disagree with this concept:

http://www.talkingrugbyunion.co.uk/should-elite-rugby-be-ring-fenced-/12547.htm

 

[welshglory]

Here's what i think.

Very few clubs have aspirations, dreams or infrastructures of being professional entities in the whole of the English league system outside the Premiership.
In the Champ you've got Worcester, Bristol, Yorkshire Carnegie and possibly Cornish Pirates (if they can get a stadium) who have the requirements to be a pro rugby organisation. No other club looks like a possible Exeter.

There is already a share holding system which affectively franchises the premiership anyway.

Where are the rugby markets outside of the established ones anyway?
West country is covered (Bath, Gloucester, Bristol)
East Midlands is covered, no apparent interest in Nottingham for rugby. (Leicester, Northampton)
The Northern cities are just about right and those are the main cities excluding Liverpool. (Sale, Newcastle and Yorkshire)
West midlands could probably fit a team in Birmingham if the required funding and marketing was put behind it. (Worcester, Wasps)
You've got Exeter in the south west, with Cornwall or Plymouth possible to join them.
The South coast could fit a team again like Birmingham if the required financials were put in place.
London and the home counties is over saturated as it is. (Saracens, Quins, Irish, Welsh)

Around the country most clubs are amateur social where you play with your mates and have a beer and a laugh. The best part about rugby!
Club rugby for the most part will always be like this globally. That is rugby culture at it's best.

Why not keep a club league structure but keep it strictly amateur.

France is a slightly different beast because of the working class history connected to the clubs there. There is big interest all across the south of France for their local clubs. Can you really say the same for England? Apart from a few pockets around the country perhaps.

Club sport if intended to be successful needs to be tribal. Rugby is still largely a participation sport across the world. Football and rugby league became pro spectator sports when the cultural landscape was suitable for clubs. There was the large industrial workforce and people wanted something to belong to. With social media and the internet these days it's a completely different world. Most people don't really have time for that these days apart from die hards who have been following for a while or people with time on their hands. There are mostly fair-weather fickle fans these days who will go to big events now and again or at least a really big event (Welsh daffodil hats and Lunster fans come to mind).

Rugby should really start looking at the NFL for inspiration and implementing big games more. That's for another post though...