Premiership Rugby 20/21 - Rd 18

[will311293]

Ah well it happens, players sometimes beat the living cr*p out of each other historically and then go back to being best mates and even team mates (Ashton/Tuilagi), Gibson/Youngs (Leicester) etc.

I am sure that the likes of Johnson, Back, Dallaglio, Hill, Kay, Greenwood, Borthwick, White, Vickery etc weren't always smiles, cuddles and rainbows to each other

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I've never seen Mike Phillips stamp someone on the head like that but if he did I'd call him out on it. 100%

I think we're getting into semantics here. Could he have avoided doing what he did? Imo, most definitely and that therefore makes his actions deliberate. I'm not concerned with him being a dirty player or what have you. I don't think I've used that word to describe him. He's certainly quite an angry individual but whatever, I'm not really concerned if he's a squeaky clean choir boy or if he's Satan incarnate. As I've said, looking at the video imo its deliberate because he could've avoided it so it follows that he, to some degree, went out of his way to do what he did.

And everyone here is calling him out, literally nobody has argued he shouldn't have got a red and that it was incredibly stupid and dangerous. The point of contention is claiming he intended to do it and claiming he is a dirty player as reason to justify that view. Brown has not been dirty just like Phillips wasn't dirty, he's just an irritating player who winds others up but that's a very different ball game.

There is a difference between not showing due care and intending to cause harm. When POM stamped on Cole's ankle, that was intentional. When Callum Clarke snapped a players arm, that was intentional. This seemed simply reckless. No time when a player has intended to cause harm have they apologised immediately afterwards.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Ah well it happens, players sometimes beat the living cr*p out of each other historically and then go back to being best mates and even team mates (Ashton/Tuilagi), Gibson/Youngs (Leicester) etc.

I am sure that the likes of Johnson, Back, Dallaglio, Hill, Kay, Greenwood, Borthwick, White, Vickery etc weren't always smiles, cuddles and rainbows to each other

Yeah, it's not the worst thing I've ever seen on a rugby pitch. Can't remember who it was (was it Francis?) but one Welsh player tried to do some kind of eye grab/gouge on an English player in a friendly game a few years ago (might have been a WC warm up game or something)

Either way, whilst it's not the worst thing I've seen it's pretty bad. If I believed it was a genuine accident I would say fine, it's just a rugby incident but I don't think it was an accident. He knew what he was doing, he knew where his head was etc etc.

 

[Welsh Exile]

And everyone here is calling him out, literally nobody has argued he shouldn't have got a red and that it was incredibly stupid and dangerous. The point of contention is claiming he intended to do it and claiming he is a dirty player as reason to justify that view. Brown has not been dirty just like Phillips wasn't dirty, he's just an irritating player who winds others up but that's a very different ball game.

There is a difference between not showing due care and intending to cause harm. When POM stamped on Cole's ankle, that was intentional. When Callum Clarke snapped a players arm, that was intentional. This seemed simply reckless. No time when a player has intended to cause harm have they apologised immediately afterwards.

No one, apart from one, is calling him out for what it was, though. I'm not bothered about the "it was reckless" stuff well, duh, obviously it was reckless. I'm going further, I'm saying he knew what he was doing. You're saying he was just getting his balance or some bollix. That's where the disagreement is.

 

[Welsh Exile]

And again, you want to compare to Phillips show me footage of him stamping on someone's head like that and I'll condemn it.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

No one, apart from one, is calling him out for what it was, though. I'm not bothered about the "it was reckless" stuff well, duh, obviously it was reckless. I'm going further, I'm saying he knew what he was doing. You're saying he was just getting his balance or some bollix. That's where the disagreement is.

You're not just saying that though, you are also claiming he is a dirty player with a history of being dirty. You want talking ********, look no further than that.

And again I use Phillips as an example of how a player having a reputation for being angry or spiky does not mean they have a reputation for being dirty. You are the one trying to make that connection so if you don't like the fact that Phillips can be called spiky and not be dirty then don't make that point. You seem to be purposely obtuse in ignoring the point I'm making, why would I show Mike Phillips stamping on a player when I'm making the point that his reputation does not mean he is dirty? How can you not comprehend that?

 

[Welsh Exile]

You're not just saying that though, you are also claiming he is a dirty player with a history of being dirty. You want talking ********, look no further than that.

How many times have I said ignore that? Just look at the incident. I don't need any previous to support my argument, I mean it helps, but as I said the Irish incident isn't as conclusive as this one so whatever, ignore it if you like and I said it's best to just judge each incident on its own merit.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

How many times have I said ignore that? Just look at the incident. I don't need any previous to support my argument, I mean it helps, but as I said the Irish incident isn't as conclusive as this one so whatever, ignore it if you like and I said it's best to just judge each incident on its own merit.

So you want to make a point and then want to demand I ignore it? So you admit that you don't think Brown is fundamentally a dirty player correct?

I have looked at the incident believe it or not and I do not believe he intentionally stepped on his face. That requires a level of malice Brown has never shown and had no reason to show there. If you don't need previous to support your argument then don't try to claim you have it, simple really.

Judging this incident on its own merit, what reason do you have to believe that Brown was so overcome with anger he decided to stamp on a players face? It's usual to discuss a motive when talking about malice and so far you have not done this, with your sole attempt being to claim it was in character, which you are not suggesting we ignore. Remember we aren't talking motive for a small scuffle, we are talking a player wanting to cause serious injury. You have no presented anything credible to suggest Brown had any motivation to do that other than "it looked like it". His actions after the fact would seem to indicate he had not intended to do it, which again is not what you see when a player intends to cause harm.

So, you really want to die on the hill of Brown suddenly and completely out of character absolutely lost the plot and set out to cause severe harm to another player in a game with nothing really hinging on it all because he was holding his leg?

 

[Welsh Exile]

You're not just saying that though, you are also claiming he is a dirty player with a history of being dirty. You want talking ********, look no further than that.

And again I use Phillips as an example of how a player having a reputation for being angry or spiky does not mean they have a reputation for being dirty. You are the one trying to make that connection so if you don't like the fact that Phillips can be called spiky and not be dirty then don't make that point. You seem to be purposely obtuse in ignoring the point I'm making, why would I show Mike Phillips stamping on a player when I'm making the point that his reputation does not mean he is dirty? How can you not comprehend that?

I would say Mike Phillips could be quite dirty actually. I mean, I've never seen him do something like what Brown did but I probably wouldn't rule it out. He's never done it to my knowledge though so your point is kind of silly to me.

Did Brown know where his head was?
Could he have avoided it?

If the answer to both of those questions is yes then he's been a naughty boy. You would say no I guess but we're not likely to agree it would seem.

 

[Welsh Exile]

So you want to make a point and then want to demand I ignore it? So you admit that you don't think Brown is fundamentally a dirty player correct?

I have looked at the incident believe it or not and I do not believe he intentionally stepped on his face. That requires a level of malice Brown has never shown and had no reason to show there. If you don't need previous to support your argument then don't try to claim you have it, simple really.

Judging this incident on its own merit, what reason do you have to believe that Brown was so overcome with anger he decided to stamp on a players face? It's usual to discuss a motive when talking about malice and so far you have not done this, with your sole attempt being to claim it was in character, which you are not suggesting we ignore. Remember we aren't talking motive for a small scuffle, we are talking a player wanting to cause serious injury. You have no presented anything credible to suggest Brown had any motivation to do that other than "it looked like it". His actions after the fact would seem to indicate he had not intended to do it, which again is not what you see when a player intends to cause harm.

So, you really want to die on the hill of Brown suddenly and completely out of character absolutely lost the plot and set out to cause severe harm to another player in a game with nothing really hinging on it all because he was holding his leg?

I'm saying ignore it as I don't need it to support my argument.

Players can do dirty things and not be a dirty player. Just as some people can say racist things but they're not actually racist.

Brown has a reputation of having a short fuse. I believe, this short fuse was lit when, as you say, someone was holding his leg at a ruck.

I believe the fact that at 8 seconds you can see him on both feet perfectly balanced, the fact his leg went inward (unnaturally) instead of outwards, the fact he looked down just prior to doing it and the fact his leg kicked downwards in again an unnatural way as opposed to placing your foot down all points to the fact that he knew what he was doing.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I would say Mike Phillips could be quite dirty actually. I mean, I've never seen him do something like what Brown did but I probably wouldn't rule it out. He's never done it to my knowledge though so your point is kind of silly to me.

Did Brown know where his head was?
Could he have avoided it?

If the answer to both of those questions is yes then he's been a naughty boy. You would say no I guess but we're not likely to agree it would seem.

Ok it's obvious you are just being obtuse for the sake of it now, I've no stated on multiple occasions that the comparison to Phillips has nothing to do with the head stamp and is a comment about how a players reputation for being angry doesn't automatically mean they are also dirty, but you keep asking stupid things like "show me Phillips stamping", you're like a Creationist asking for a Crocoduck, I haven't accused Phillips of being dirty, quite the opposite, so why the hell do you think I'd provide evidence of Phillips being dirty?

We can disagree on it being intentional or not but you still have not provided any reason for Mike Brown to be that malicious other than you simply think he is. There are tons of cases of players getting red cards for hitting players in the head, that doesn't automatically mean malice. Brown knew he was there and could have had little regard for him but that doesn't then mean he intended to stamp on his face. But you will never be convinced by this as you are well and truly on the Welsh Brown-hate bandwagon so it's not worth discussing any more.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

The full speed ones, especially the one at 1.14 in the BT sport video make it look super accidental and off balance.

Regardless, we're not going to agree - he will almost definitely get a ban but I hope we see him at the stoop, in quarters and with a crowd to say goodbye

 

[Welsh Exile]

Ok it's obvious you are just being obtuse for the sake of it now, I've no stated on multiple occasions that the comparison to Phillips has nothing to do with the head stamp and is a comment about how a players reputation for being angry doesn't automatically mean they are also dirty, but you keep asking stupid things like "show me Phillips stamping", you're like a Creationist asking for a Crocoduck, I haven't accused Phillips of being dirty, quite the opposite, so why the hell do you think I'd provide evidence of Phillips being dirty?

We can disagree on it being intentional or not but you still have not provided any reason for Mike Brown to be that malicious other than you simply think he is. There are tons of cases of players getting red cards for hitting players in the head, that doesn't automatically mean malice. Brown knew he was there and could have had little regard for him but that doesn't then mean he intended to stamp on his face. But you will never be convinced by this as you are well and truly on the Welsh Brown-hate bandwagon so it's not worth discussing any more.

I'm really confused by your whole Mike Phillips point to be honest so maybe I am being obtuse but not deliberately so. I literally have no idea what he has got to do with anything tbh. We probably have very different views on Phillips as well but it's not helpful in this incident as I keep saying we should focus on the incident at hand.

See and this is the semantics part, if Brown knew where his head was, and he had no regard for his safety then surely it follows that he knew what he was doing. It would make more sense if you just said he didn't know where his head was or that he knew where it was but he was off balance or something like that. Saying he knew where his head was and had no regard for his safety just sounds like we agree with each other.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You're not just saying that though, you are also claiming he is a dirty player with a history of being dirty. You want talking ********, look no further than that.

And again I use Phillips as an example of how a player having a reputation for being angry or spiky does not mean they have a reputation for being dirty. You are the one trying to make that connection so if you don't like the fact that Phillips can be called spiky and not be dirty then don't make that point. You seem to be purposely obtuse in ignoring the point I'm making, why would I show Mike Phillips stamping on a player when I'm making the point that his reputation does not mean he is dirty? How can you not comprehend that?

So you're saying the fact that Phillips was called Spikey but he wasn't actually a dirty player proves that Brown is ok as he is called Mr angry and like Phillips has never done anything bad. You can have a reputation but that reputation is unfounded, is that what you're saying? Am I misunderstanding you here?

I would say Mike Phillips was 1 million % a spikey player. He was a wind up merchant and he was a cheat. I would draw the line at dirty because I have never seen him gouge or stamp on someone's head but spikey sums him up well. Brown is called Mr angry as he acts quite angrily a lot of the time so like Philips' Spikey tag, it is warranted, however, the difference being, that Brown was involved in that incident yesterday which is fitting with his Angry nickname

All of this is just irrelevant though if you ask me, I regret saying he had previous, I shouldn't have said it so that's on me. Don't get me wrong, it's still my opinion that he knew what he was doing last time against Ireland but it's not conclusive and it has no real baring on the incident yesterday as you should look at it in isolation.

 

[Welsh Exile]

For what it's worth, and seeing as there is a perception of me hating the English or whatever, I thought I'd mention that one of my favourite rugby players is Underhill. As far as character goes I absolutely love Curry and think he comes across as a lovely bloke Every time I've listened to him speak. Same goes for Itoje. I even really like Genge, who has a similar reputation and was involved
In a little scuffle against Ireland which I thought was a little naughty but wasn't too bad (nothing like the Brown incident for me) conversely, there are Welsh players who I would call out for disgusting behaviour so it's got nothing to do with whether they're English or Martian.

 

[Scotty]

Christ, watching that again it's even worse. If you pause it on 8 seconds you can see he's regained his balance perfectly. He's not unbalanced in anyway. Then you notice his right leg come across and he doesn't place his foot he stamps it down in a downward motion. Off balance my arse.

Seei see the opposite to you,
he obv knows he's there And it is very reckless and if an accidental tackle to the head is red then so is an accidental stamp.

Clear red, im not disputing that.

He is aware of the player being there, but he didnt stamp down on his head keeping his weight on his other foot planted. he goes to step over the player whilst looking away and badly misjudges it, his other foot comes off the floor and then to not hurt him further he lifts the foot and drops to the ground. Thats my view on it red card offence but without intent.

Mr Angry, he gets fired up and lets it out but thats alot different to being dirty IMO.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Seei see the opposite to you,
he obv knows he's there And it is very reckless and if an accidental tackle to the head is red then so is an accidental stamp.

Clear red, im not disputing that.

He is aware of the player being there, but he didnt stamp down on his head keeping his weight on his other foot planted. he goes to step over the player whilst looking away and badly misjudges it, his other foot comes off the floor and then to not hurt him further he lifts the foot and drops to the ground. Thats my view on it red card offence but without intent.

Mr Angry, he gets fired up and lets it out but thats alot different to being dirty IMO.

You won't be surprised that I think you're being incredibly generous to him. He doesn't just know the player is there, he knows his head is right there. Most players in that situation, who are aware of their surroundings (just as Brown was) would just fall to the ground or move their leg out in the opposite direction (outwards). I mean, how many times do we see players hold onto other players legs at a ruck (several times a game) and how many times do we see these incidents (hardly ever) that to me on its own is slightly damning (but not definitive)

You say he badly misjudged it but I would say it's really hard to misjudge something that badly so there must've been some level of intent there in the heat of the moment. Looks like he regretted it once the red mist had gone so fair play to that I suppose.

 

[Scotty]

You won't be surprised that I think you're being incredibly generous to him. He doesn't just know the player is there, he knows his head is right there. Most players in that situation, who are aware of their surroundings (just as Brown was) would just fall to the ground or move their leg out in the opposite direction (outwards). I mean, how many times do we see players hold onto other players legs at a ruck (several times a game) and how many times do we see these incidents (hardly ever) that to me on its own is slightly damning (but not definitive)

You say he badly misjudged it but I would say it's really hard to misjudge something that badly so there must've been some level of intent there in the heat of the moment. Looks like he regretted it once the red mist had gone so fair play to that I suppose.

I like brown as a player but dont care if he get a 6 month ban or a 2 week ban just as long as the ban he gets is deserved. Makes no odds to me as an England fan or a Chiefs fan, infact a big ban might help chiefs in the play offs if we were to face them. So im really not not bias on this (i know you havnt said i am btw,im just saying)

Ive watched it again taking what youve said into account he could have dropped his body the other way i accept and it may have been better but for me his standing leg only lifts abit off the ground so he goes to put his weight back on that leg and let himself drop.

Im trying to see it from your view but im just not seeing intent here. Highly reckless, maybe could have fell the other way but still doesnt mean it was intially malicious.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I like brown as a player but dont care if he get a 6 month ban or a 2 week ban just as long as the ban he gets is deserved. Makes no odds to me as an England fan or a Chiefs fan, infact a big ban might help chiefs in the play offs if we were to face them. So im really not not bias on this (i know you havnt said i am btw,im just saying)

Ive watched it again taking what youve said into account he could have dropped his body the other way i accept and it may have been better but for me his standing leg only lifts abit off the ground so he goes to put his weight back on that leg and let himself drop.

Im trying to see it from your view but im just not seeing intent here. Highly reckless, maybe could have fell the other way but still doesnt mean it was intially malicious.

Yeah fair enough. I disagree but fair do's.

Whether the panel give him 50 weeks or 2 weeks doesn't really prove anything. They've made brain dead decisions in the past so even if they agree with me I can't use it as some kind of "I was right" type of thing.

Also, he'll obviously say it was an accident and he showed immediate remorse for it so they'll half his sentence. He'll probably be looking at 3-6 weeks I reckon.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Yeah fair enough. I disagree but fair do's.

Whether the panel give him 50 weeks or 2 weeks doesn't really prove anything. They've made brain dead decisions in the past so even if they agree with me I can't use it as some kind of "I was right" type of thing.

Also, he'll obviously say it was an accident and he showed immediate remorse for it so they'll half his sentence. He'll probably be looking at 3-6 weeks I reckon.

Reckon it'll be between low and mid sanctions 2-6 weeks and then halved for good conduct afterwards, and good character beforehand