[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Ireland vs. New Zealand (19/11/2016)

[jomjom]

France will be licking their lips at the prospect of NZ trying to thug them the way they did Ireland. Dumpy little pillock of a ref needs banning

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Nah you're not cheats, just thugs
Good luck trying to play dirty like that against France because they will eat you alive, they always try to play rugby first and use their flair, sometimes they get it wrong, but the second you start trying to take them out illegally they will make jumpers out of you
Dumpy little prat of a ref needs banning
And don't get too cocky about your missed opportunities, we had loads as well
Liked you in defeat last time out, thought you were gracious, but yesterday reminded me why I can't stand you

Get over it, you win some you lose some. I don't think NZ had any malice in them, a bit reckless sure, but I really don't believe they were out to injure Irish players (unlike France in the RWC, ahem...). I don't want to comment on the reffing too much because I haven't watched again and also because there seems to be a lot points of contention but the stats speak for themselves - 2 yellow cards, 14 penalties, no tries. We had our chances and we blew them.

It was a weird match, I felt both disappointed and heartened at the same time. Disappointed that Sexton, Henshaw and CJ got sent off early, disappointed that we didn't go for the corner on two occasions, disappointed that there were several missed opportunities to score tries and legitimately beat the #1 ranked side in the world, disappointed that the potential to make some serious history was right in front of us but slipped away. Having Henshaw there really would've been that extra 3m over the try line, that last ditch try saving tackle...

Yet at the same time it's hard to be too pessimistic. Despite the scoreline some players had a great a match, especially our back row - it's great knowing the quality of depth we have there. I knew Seanie would up his tempo when it came to the crunch and it was fantastic to see. It made me particularly happy to hear an exhausted, relieved Kieran Read say that Ireland made them for work for it. Irish rugby is in a great place at the moment and it's only going to get better. I'm proud of the lads having put an end to NZ's 18 winning streak and giving them their only serious challenge since the WC final (was that even much of a challenge?), twice. It's sad to see Sexton barely able to play a match these days though, I highly doubt he'll be in Japan. As much as I like Paddy I don't think he's the full time answer - maybe he is, maybe he needs more intl time but based on what I've seen Carbery do at Leinster he seems to be the real deal, hope he gets some good game time in the 6N.

All in all, a quality proper test match. That 3rd try was phenomenal, really exemplified the skill of the ABs. This year's 6N might be shaping up to be great. France and Wales showed some form again last night, I didn't see the Italy match but great result for the Italians (even if the Boks are crap atm). Scotland are full of promises as always but they did beat Argentina who are a pretty good side.

Mar 18 Grand Slam decider - bring it on!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

@The Jones Boy I think the ref stopped that more than the result. The guy was awful but fortunately didn't affect the result, Smith's YC was ridiculous but made up for his fear of handing them out for repeated infringements, NZ played hard and out of control sometimes but they beat us up and won the game because of it. No offside line either and apparently tacklers don't have to release the tackled player before contesting the ruck, both sides were wise to it which shows we were dealing with top class operators though.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Yeah thats true, the ref wasn't up to the calibre of the two teams contesting the game.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I agree that if Henshaw hadn't been injured then Ireland would've had a very good chance of winning, but then if Crotty and Moala hadn't been injured in the 1st test I think NZ would've had a very good chance of winning that game.

 

[Makos]

Incredible defense from our guys. I really appreciated their effort, they defended like their lives were on the line and it's always inspiring witnessing that, we barely had the ball.

The Irish backrow is exceptionally good, probably the best in the world. But I was really not happy with Poite, that was a poor performance. He let them away with hands in the ruck and always called us up for any minor infringements. He was particularly guilty for not calling Ireland up for not releasing and only ever called it when it was blatantly obvious which lead to them retaining the ball with ease every breakdown.

Ardie was like a breathe of fresh air when he came on early. His physicality and work rate is next level. I can't stress how good Whitelock and Rettalick are either. Easily the best lock combination in the world by some distance, they improved us massively.

ALB once again proved he's one of the best centres in the world, amazing skills for the final try. Fekitoa tries his hardest and you can never fault him for lack of trying, but I think our best centre pairing is now Crotty and ALB.

Savea had one instance where he made a great run with ball in hand, but he really showed how poor his other skill sets are. Under the high particularly. I think we really need a ball winning winger, especially if we're going to kick it as much as we did. It's hard with Savea because he's such a power and there isn't really a better finisher in the game .

We kicked too much ball away.

Barrett is the most dangerous player with ball in hand we have seen in a very long time. His speed and attacking vision is inspiring, I always feel he's going to do something special when he gets that ball.

Last of all. I'm very disappointed in Ireland's fans sportsmanship this time around. In the past I've always praised the Irish for their great sportsmanship and attitude. This time around their commentary team were pathetic and petty and their fans were particularly obnoxious. Regarding the Barrett try grounding, it was a clear penalty try even if he didn't ground it, which he clearly did on the first angle and it was potential yellow card. Apologies to the great Irish fans who always play and watch in good spirit, but I felt a lot of your compatriots let you down this time around.

 

[jomjom]

Last of all. I'm very disappointed in Ireland's fans sportsmanship this time around. In the past I've always praised the Irish for their great sportsmanship and attitude. This time around their commentary team were pathetic and petty and their fans were particularly obnoxious.

Could you cite a few examples? I keep seeing this on the internet, but to be honest apart from a few eejits I haven't seen any of this from Irish fans... The RTE commentary last night acknowledged quite rightly NZ's superiority and Ireland's poor execution, with few allusions to the reffing.

 

[Makos]

Could you cite a few examples? I keep seeing this on the internet, but to be honest apart from a few eejits I haven't seen any of this from Irish fans... The RTE commentary last night acknowledged quite rightly NZ's superiority and Ireland's poor execution, with few allusions to the reffing.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/86660292/All-Blacks-coach-Steve-Hansen-gets-prickly-over-Irish-TV-interviewer

Your crowd reactions were poor as well. Not impressed.

I don't really want to focus on that though. It was a good tough test match. I just don't like to read or hear these accusations and poor attitudes.

 

[jomjom]

lol do not mind that fool... she is consistently crap in her "interviews". I would not take it as a fair reflection of how the Irish feel. Not that I speak for the Irish as a whole but among me and everyone else in my circle who watched the match there are no sour grapes to be found, just a thoroughly acknowledged all rounded defeat to the better team. The only people *****ing I have found are on the internet (surprise surprise).

As for the crowd, well, it's easy to get swept up in the moment. There were times during the match when my emotions were running high too, and accused the NZ'ers of playing dirty, but I came to my senses and chilled out afterwards. But you're right this shouldn't be the focus, the quality of the match should be - just don't want people thinking that we're poor sportsmen because I don't think we are, on account of some internet warriors and some clueless RTE interviewer.

 

[Makos]

As for the crowd, well, it's easy to get swept up in the moment. There were times during the match when my emotions were running high too, and accused the NZ'ers of playing dirty, but I came to my senses and chilled out afterwards. But you're right this shouldn't be the focus, the quality of the match should be - just don't want people thinking that we're poor sportsmen because I don't think we are, on account of some internet warriors and some clueless RTE interviewer.

Your commentators encouraged these accusations and unprofessionally made them during the match as well. I understand bias commentary happens with every country, but saying things like "The All Blacks are thugs" and "Are they deliberately trying to break the rules" is cancerous to a fan base.

Thanks for the great test matches though. It's been great playing you. I'm really impressed with how good Ireland are now, I hope you can make a RWC final soon.
I have never really watched the 6 Nations, but I will be sure making an effort to watch Ireland vs England in the future and try catch as many Irish games as I can.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think there is a world of difference between how NZ and Ireland reacted to their losses. NZ were mostly pretty magnanimous and said the better side won. Ireland have come out with accusations of ref bias, dirty All Blacks, cheating etc etc and it is not just some warriors on the internet (although there are plenty) the Irish commentary was completely biased and calling for cards all through the game whilst ignoring all Irish infringements. You then have that Irish interviewer pressing Hansen to say the All Blacks were dirty, the attitude surrounding the loss has been atrocious in the Irish camp in comparison. Granted not all Irish are acting like this but it's a hell of a lot worse than how the Kiwis reacted last time.

 

[corny]

Disappointing game imo. Absorbing no doubt but both sides have aspects of their game they'll be disappointed with.

Irelands precision of two weeks ago completely deserted them. We resorted to the dark days when confronted by the physical Kiwis. Got drawn into an arm wrestle, too many one out runners, carriers looking for contact etc. Positives are obvious. We dominated territory and possession again against the number 1 ranked team in the world.

NZ? They came out to make a physical statement but their discipline was shocking. You accept one high tackle per game but when you give the referee 5 or 6 chances to put you bin from the tackle you have to question your discipline. Executing off limited possession is worthy of the highest praise though. Some great passages of play.

Both sides complaining about the referee. I thought he did well in what was a tough game to ref. He was slow to penalise Ireland around the breakdown but he had ample reason to put another couple of Kiwis in the bin which he didn't. Felt it evened out over the 80.

The Welsh TMO deserves to lose his job btw. By hook or crook Barrett was getting 7 points because Sexton was high trying to get him. But the TMO basically lied to Peyper. He was asked have you seen the ball clearly grounded. He didn't see it grounded. He assumed it was. Thats not his job. He needed conclusive evidence with the question asked of him. Peyper was shocked and nearly had to explain what grass was to him. He stubbornly stuck to his guns though. He did the same on Canes tackle. Made a snap judgement that it was a clash heads when it clearly wasn't. Canes shoulder hit Henshaw. What you make of it is up to you. Henshaw pirouetting exonerates Cane somewhat but the point still stands.

For Ireland going forward? We need younger lads in the backs. We lack pace, guile and invention. Probably the worst of the Tier 1 nations (Italy excluded). Kearney, Trimble and Payne offer nothing with ball in hand. Payne might if he moved to fullback. Sweetnam, Adeolokun, Aki, Ringrose etc all need to be pushed into more prominent roles.

SOB, Heaslip and Retallick are ****ing machines and the Irish lad is right....that interviewer is a known fool. Makes Sonia Mclaughlin look good ffs. Eddie O' Sullivan, Brent Pope and Shane Horgan were in the studio and were having none of the sore loser ****e.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think there is a world of difference between how NZ and Ireland reacted to their losses. NZ were mostly pretty magnanimous and said the better side won. Ireland have come out with accusations of ref bias, dirty All Blacks, cheating etc etc and it is not just some warriors on the internet (although there are plenty) the Irish commentary was completely biased and calling for cards all through the game whilst ignoring all Irish infringements. You then have that Irish interviewer pressing Hansen to say the All Blacks were dirty, the attitude surrounding the loss has been atrocious in the Irish camp in comparison. Granted not all Irish are acting like this but it's a hell of a lot worse than how the Kiwis reacted last time.

What have the Irish camp said that's atrocious? They've praised NZ for their win and spoken about their own shortcomings and where they have to improve.

Quinlan and your one interviewing Hansen are exceptions, Horgan was gracious on NZ television and our pubdits focused entirely on the game. There was salty reactions when we won in Chicago too.

 

[The Jones Boy]

There was some small nonsense in the media but the Irish folk have been good natured as you would expect.
I'm convinced the one 'supposed Irish troll" on here is actually Kiwi up to mischief again, which is another disappointment.
If I could get my hands on him he'd spend enough time in the dog kennel tied up up to a randy goat that he'd have a serious attitude readjustment next time he got on the boards.

I failed to mention Sean O'Brien post-game, I think he's a bloody monster when he puts on a green shirt. He's 10 feet tall and bullet proof.

 

[munstermuffin]

Rewatched game a bit more sober and have to say this is all being blown out of proportion a bit. I dont think Henshaw incident was malicious just more a case of payers are more physical and hits are getting bigger so the risk is always there.
On the ref hew wasn't great for either team. But look the end of the day shows the All Blacks won and deservedly so. From an Irish point of view. Schmidt knows he has a serious 30 player squad. But at same time now will have to make some big calls. Rob Kearney I know I'm not biggest fan but that position is a call. Centre partnership again is up for discussion. Not because anyone was poor more the options.
Backrow again theres options. And the pack as a whole need to find balance in terms of for lineout options etc.
But they can all be proud and know they can compete but equally it shows the fine margins that win or loose games at this level

 

[corny]

Well intent has nothing to do with it when sanctions are considered. Hearing Fekitoa and Cane have been cited meaning citing officer thinks both could have been red cards. Dagg, Coles and Sexton were only yellows then so.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Well intent has nothing to do with it when sanctions are considered. Hearing Fekitoa and Cane have been cited meaning citing officer thinks both could have been red cards. Dagg, Coles and Sexton were only yellows then so.

Fekitoa being cited seems harsh. A yellow seemed like the reasonable punishment and I don't think there was any malice. I'm not a fan of his, but Fekitoa has always seemed pretty humble and clean. A big hitter, but fair and within the laws.

Cane on the other hand, I'm hoping for a ban. I'm not one of the people claiming the All Blacks are thugs and cheats etc. But he purposely hit Henshaw with his shoulder (whether he intended to hit him in the head or not, I don't know, but it was still incredibly reckless and for that he needs banning). Made no attempt to wrap his arms, and it ended Henshaw's game (although that shouldn't impact the decision).

Didn't the article say that 4 players have been cited? Who are the other 2?

 

[Dunhookin]

Hmm, powerful passionate test match - but for me it was visible again that match officials tend to be in thrall to the ABs and let them get away with things other nations get pinged for.

The tackle on Henshaw, it probably wasn't malicious - and let's hope not, but in my opinion it was definitely clumsy and illegal. It also resulted in Henshaw taking no further part, many lesser incidents have resulted in players seeing yellow - which would have been appropriate in this case.

Sure the Kiwis will argue otherwise, but Barrett's try was not grounded and should not have been awarded. What the TMO was doing authorising that is hard to understand and I hope it's not just swept under the carpet as if it never happened. No point in having a TMO if they perform so ineptly.

Despite these two incidents the better team won - the Irish have done phenomenally well, their win over NZ in Chicago was monumental - I expect them to be right there for the 6N ***le

 

[Makos]

Hmm, powerful passionate test match - but for me it was visible again that match officials tend to be in thrall to the ABs and let them get away with things other nations get pinged for.

The tackle on Henshaw, it probably wasn't malicious - and let's hope not, but in my opinion it was definitely clumsy and illegal. It also resulted in Henshaw taking no further part, many lesser incidents have resulted in players seeing yellow - which would have been appropriate in this case.

Sure the Kiwis will argue otherwise, but Barrett's try was not grounded and should not have been awarded. What the TMO was doing authorising that is hard to understand and I hope it's not just swept under the carpet as if it never happened. No point in having a TMO if they perform so ineptly.

Despite these two incidents the better team won - the Irish have done phenomenally well, their win over NZ in Chicago was monumental - I expect them to be right there for the 6N ***le

A terrible read.

 

[Larksea]

it was an accidental head clash, was strange looking at the initial replays I wasn't sure then after the game they showed other angles and it was simply a straight up head clash and both players seem to get a bit wrong footed. Unfortunate but technically not even a penalty.

Strange game for the refereeing and what went against the AB's. We were clearly guilty of some silly mistakes and I dont remember a game where the AB's made so many shots deemed to be high. AB's were rightfully on the end of a high penalty count but the cane penalty was clearly an accidental head clash. Fekitoa's Yellow card was high but replays showed it started on the shoulder and slipped up penalty yes but a card was harsh. And Aaron Smiths Yellow card was harsh too, technically what he did was fine. The ref also missed some silly/accidental stuff we did but the main issue was consistency, Hansen does have a point here. The team that defends the most will inevitably end up giving away more penalties that is just the nature of the game. But it did seem like the crowd (which was amazing) did seem to influence the officials.

on the AB performance.

Overall we were below par again but we just had a side much closer to our top team and they were experienced enough to get it done. We fixed the lineout and fixed our defense, our defense put pressure on the Irish and they mostly failed to implement their attacking game.

Barrett was pretty phenomenal. Could see in Chicago when he started to run in the 2nd half the AB's got on top. He started running early and it paid off. Some critical scrambling defense as well, 2 try saving tackles?

I thought our locks were superb, was a bit worried as whitelock was still walking gingerly last weekend and Retalick looked terrible when he game on against Italy. But they were both back to their best and IMO that was the game for me. Their work around the field and in the lineout nullified any advantage the Irish had in Chicago with a low on form Kaino playing lock.

Cane was huge before he went off early. I think we did miss him and the style of game he plays. That said SaveaA put in a massive effort, without seeing stats he seemed to make a huge amount of tackles and put in work at a lot of rucks. We didn't see his great running game but he really put in some work.

Squire was solid, pass mark, he's clearly working very hard.

Aaron Smith was a big of a mixed bag. Some of his passing was very good and as well as some of his clearing kicks. He did try on defense but still got caught out a couple of times. But he is still lacking his spark that he normally has and Perenara would have been a much better choice to start this game. I Honestly think even TKB is in better form right now. Harsh when I guess you would give Smith a pass mark for the game. But Perenara is in such good form a pass mark is not enough.

Our midfield did OK, Fekitoa supported well and got over the try line again but overall I was more impressed with ALB. He defended really well did some good things on attack and just generally made the right decisions. Fekitoa has been involved a lot more in the last couple of tests hes doing some good things but you can see hes also still making a lot of mistakes. And maybe he needs to put his kicking game away and work on it some more. Generally when he kicks its the wrong decision and he executes it poorly. That is harsh though, With Crotty, Moala, Ngatai and SBW injured. He has done a good and important job for us this year and generally his defense has been accurate.

Dagg did some good stuff, looked very good with the ball its a shame he did not get more.

SaveaJ still below par. one little run with a couple of bumps but really he had very little impact on the game.

Ben Smith & Kieran Read - our captian and vice captian. I honestly think we have rung these guys dry this season. I would have included Crotty, Cane, Kaino and Retalick & Whitelock in this category as well but they all ended up getting injury breaks. The selectors need to seriously look at how these guys have been managed. They are still playing well but to me they are clearly both running close to empty.

Smith is now injured out out of the final game. Sucks, and its going to hamper his off season as well.

The All Blacks are the best team in the world because the players go out and work harder than any other players in the world. Ben Smith Easily puts in 20-30% more work than most elite fullbacks in the game. Brodie Retalick is like having an extra loose forward on the park. I really think these guys need to be managed better. My concern now is that some of these players are going to suffer a hangover next year. The off season isn't going to be long enough for them to recover and build their base again.

NZRU should seriously look to organize giving Smith and Read time off the beginning of super rugby. Allow them an extra 4 weeks or so.

In the after match Sumo touched on something that I think is absolutely true. Since Argentina joined the tri nations we have been struggling even more at the end of the season. I think we have always peaked at the 2nd half of the tri nations. Then there is a big release of energy, a drop off in intensity and accuracy and then the last couple of games each season we really struggle. I think the coaches and selectors need to recognize that.

 

[Amiga500]

As said after the previous game, NZ are still a much slicker outfit.

The Irish back 5 are not creative enough. We knew that 12 months ago and its still the case today.

Despite having his best 2 games in a looonnng stretch, Bob Kearney is not the answer at 15. Payne is getting on in years so may not be the right answer for 2019 either.

Ringrose has to be given time at 13. He's shaping up to be the real deal in the RDS and starting to deliver on his much predicted promise. I'd also be cajoling Leo Cullen to let Carbery get more kicking tee time when the games are safe. Whether you pick Jackson's pass or Carbery's breaking threat is currently null due to Carbery's zero tee-time.

McCloskey, Ali, Craig Ronaldson and Scannell should all be pushing Ringrose and Henshaw for the prime midfield spots. Olding and Marshall aren't good enough.

I hope another good year out west will see Healy, Adeolokun or O'Halloran push for a starting spot. Trimble is as safe as fort knox, but he looks like he's carrying half of the vault when trying to run around someone. Zebo never really convinces me for some reason. Good finisher, but either doesn't have, or doesn't trust himself to have, the out-and out gas that scares defenders on the outside.