[Natwest 6 Nations] Round 3 : Scotland Vs England 24/02/2018 16:45

[Leonormous Boozer]

It had intercept written all over it to start with but turned into a peach.

Went to the TV3 (Irish broadcaster) player to look at it, the reverse angle shows how amazing it is. It was perfect, the best pass I've ever seen, love a flat wide pass!

 

[General Melchett]

Went to the TV3 (Irish broadcaster) player to look at it, the reverse angle shows how amazing it is. It was perfect, the best pass I've ever seen, love a flat wide pass!

Go to 2:38

What about the tackle from Barclay on Ford resulting in penalty at 2:20. Amazing.

 

[Saint Matt]

I thought we lost the game because of the lack of balance to the back row. Didn't understand the selection on Thursday and still can't. Scotland have always been a solid breakdown team, to go in with a second row, a blindside and a ball carrying 8 just didn't make sense to me. You need someone who can support the ball quickly in attack. They were much quicker to the ball than we were and it wasn't only second half when Underhill came on that we managed to change that a bit. It's pointless having Owen Farrell at 12 and asking him to clean out ruck after ruck, I don't think Ford and Farrell combined once today. So many penalties because no-one was clearing out.

England have over and over again gotten away with it by being accurate with the ball but things like May being in touch, the cut out pass that hit the floor, continuously sending big forwards up down the middle when time was running out etc just let Scotland off. We needed two tries with 4 mins to go and George Kruis is ambling into four Scotland defenders, it's pointless.

I think he needs to decide between his second rows and leave one out. Play Robshaw at 6, Underhill/Haskell/even Simmonds when he's fit at 7 and go back to the structure that has been successful for England.

I'm not fit in any way to tell Eddie Jones what to think but surely he must have learnt something today.

 

[White Cockade]

Great win for Scotland today
They were up for it from the first whistle and gave their all for 80 minutes and first half especially
made England look ordinary
Huw Jones has the knack of running fantastic lines and first half England couldn't cope with him
He has to be the find of the last few years
In the long run the defeat may benefit England as they may have been a bit complacent after their
unbelievable run under Eddie Jones and this may well be a wake up call that you have to play every game
with the same effort and intensity however good you are
Would still make England slight favourites but the Ireland match should be a cracker
Hopefully Scotland can carry on in this form and we should beat the Italians but Ireland will be very difficult to beat
But today just happy to win the Calcutta Cup again after so long and well done Gregor and the boys

 

[TommiG88]

That's debatable, both are officials who affect the game, though one has more impact than the other (again debatable). I think my biggest issue is that last week when the Welsh fans criticised the TMO's decision we English fans were quick to highlight how it wouldn't have changed the game and was almost irrelevant, and yet when we bring up Owen's performance this week, despite not changing the game many here feel they have the right to criticise. It is pure hypocrisy and I'm disappointed.

The welsh criticised the TMO, whilst most English fans criticised the ref. Wales infringed constantly and got away with it. England were the better side like the Scottish were this game. Although today, England were playing against Owens in the second half.

 

[Which Tyler]

So we now just need Ireland to beat Scotland, and then lose to England, and we can still take the Raeburn Shield on holiday to South Africa with us

 

[MarkyH]

England were **** poor. Glad we lost (well, not really, but), as its been coming a while and I hope we can learn from this massively. Its been touched on above, and a few times already but the job of the back row, esp the 7 is to secure / slow down play at the breakdown. We were so weak there and constantly turned over. Underhill despite his yellow offered a much better balance, and we have potentially better opensides in the Curry bros.

I honestly don't think England would be weaker by picking a backrow of Underhill, B Curry and Hughes vs France with Robshaw on the bench with Lawes (who was shite today). Its younger, more dynamic and gives us better options 18 months from the world cup. I'm not sure we lose anything other than a lineout option too

Today, if we were not demolished at the ruck our attacking game wouldn't of been so chaotic, giving away penalties and turnovers disrupted our whole game.

Not blaming Owens who is normally good, but he was pretty poor today. And i agree with whoever mentioned it about Pro14 referees not refereeing Pro14 nations.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Go to 2:38

What about the tackle from Barclay on Ford resulting in penalty at 2:20. Amazing.

where McInally come from? Never heard of him before really but this season when i have been following Cockers at Edinburgh he has been one of the stand out performers in nearly every game i have seen.

 

[General Melchett]

where McInally come from? Never heard of him before really but this season when i have been following Cockers at Edinburgh he has been one of the stand out performers in nearly every game i have seen.

He started off as a flanker and switched to hooker but is still able to do the job of an openside in the loose and secure turnover ball. Cockers is getting the best out of him and others at Edinburgh.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Did anyone pick up on Martin Johnson's comments (I think at half time) when he implied that all the England camp thought they had to do for this game was turn up and it was theirs? He was critical of that attitude actually. And then, I have been reading here that 'England have had this coming for some time' when all we have been fed with for the last 2 years is how utterly brilliant England are and how they will probably win the 2019 world cup. And how faultless EJ is as a coach. I thought Scotland showed England to be ordinary at best. And EJ looked like a bulldog chewing a wasp at the end (before the end even) of the game. But good TV it has to be said.

 

[Jimbo]

England were toilet today no doubt about it, I do however think the reffing at the break down was damn poor, I also don't think anyone without an axe to grind cant really compare the English complaints to that of the Welsh, in the welsh game it was one descision not multiple, it was also made by the TMO not the ref, of course in a game reffed by Owens anyone else is surpass to requirement because he Always knows best, I have not looked up the stats but feel fairly confident in saying he uses his colleagues to assist with calls less than the majority of refs, generally I like this as it seems to make to game flow considerably better but today it seemed like he almost delibratly made them wrong ones on sooo many occasions, is it just me or did it seem like in the first half we got pinged for so many holding on incidents and Scotland appeared to be given considerably more time before the call was made and even then it was when there was no other realistic choice.

Before anyone starts these are observations of Owens poor refereeing today, I do concede Scotland on the day we're the better team.......

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

My main concern is Jones won't learn from this. 2 weeks ago he basically staked his ability as a coach and selector on Mike Brown and this game showed how poor he can be, Wales made him look very good with a lot of uncontested high kicks. Jones won't admit he got it wrong after so aggressively defending his selection of Brown so we are stuck with him.

Back row, again Jones' aggressiveness in defending his selections means I'm not sure he has the guts to just say he ****** up by not having a single player who is good at the breakdown in the 23. I know it's easy to get the knives out after a loss but Jones has his favourites and they are repeatedly failing to deliver yet he is stubbornly not changing. His stubbornness in not blooding a 3rd 9 means we are now stuck with Wigglesworth, a potential problem highlighted by many of us ages ago. His stubbornness in not playing Watson at 15 means we are stuck with Brown who is distinctly average. He has for the most part ignored players who can function well at the breakdown and is now playing a silly game putting a lock into what is already probably the slowest back row of any T1 nation. Scotland highlighted this weakness as well as the massive space we leave out wide with our rush defence. I just don't see how we mere armchair coaches saw these weaknesses years ago and yet nothing is being done to address them. We simply CANNOT ignore the breakdown part of the game any more. There is no point having players fanned out wide across the pitch if all you're going to do is a 1 out pass to an unsupported forward who will never offer any threat of an offload.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So, reflecting on today's team with the benefit of a couple of bottles:

Mako. Invariably better from the bench.
Hartley. Time's up.
Cole. Time to try an alternative
Launch. Not one of his best, but worth his place
Itoje. Average at the moment. Move Lawes back to lock against France. Itoje to bench or be rested.
Lawes. Abandon the 6 experiment. He's a lock. Some crass mistakes overshadowed some good stuff.
Robshaw. Eddie got it right first off. Willing and industrious, but that's not enough, especially in the 7 shirt. Got walloped at breakdown and one paced. Not a cover for 8.
Hughes. Adequate stand in for Binny when fit. He wasn't. Some good moments and he'll be fitter in a fortnight.
Care. Looks better as finisher. Time to try Robson. Wiggles really shouldn't be in picture.
Ford. Never liked him and Faz as combo. Looks great, when game going his way, but goes missing when it doesn't.
Faz. Cuts the odd nice line, but not a real running threat. Time to move him back to 10.
May. Fine, he stays.
JJ. Poor game, but he stays because Manu's still not found his mojo and Slade and Daly are injured.
Watson. Barely noticed him, but he has the class to out.
Brown. Always advocated Watson for 15, but changing back 3 is least of our worries.

Our backs can still cause damage if given quick, front foot ball. Our pack's not strong enough to bully and needs an injection of pace and breakdown competitiveness. Chances are the ***le's gone so let's experiment a bit in the next couple of games.

Against France I'd like to see several changes. Might seem a bit knee jerk, but I've been advocating most for a while.

Marler
George
Sinckler
Launchbury
Lawes
Underhill
Curry B
Hughes
Robson
Faz
May
Te'o
JJ
Watson
Brown

Mako, LCD, Williams, Itoje, Mercer, Care, Ford, Nowell.

 

[Jimbo]

So, reflecting on today's team with the benefit of a couple of bottles:

Mako. Invariably better from the bench.
Hartley. Time's up.
Cole. Time to try an alternative
Launch. Not one of his best, but worth his place
Itoje. Average at the moment. Move Lawes back to lock against France. Itoje to bench or be rested.
Lawes. Abandon the 6 experiment. He's a lock. Some crass mistakes overshadowed some good stuff.
Robshaw. Eddie got it right first off. Willing and industrious, but that's not enough, especially in the 7 shirt. Got walloped at breakdown and one paced. Not a cover for 8.
Hughes. Adequate stand in for Binny when fit. He wasn't. Some good moments and he'll be fitter in a fortnight.
Care. Looks better as finisher. Time to try Robson. Wiggles really shouldn't be in picture.
Ford. Never liked him and Faz as combo. Looks great, when game going his way, but goes missing when it doesn't.
Faz. Cuts the odd nice line, but not a real running threat. Time to move him back to 10.
May. Fine, he stays.
JJ. Poor game, but he stays because Manu's still not found his mojo and Slade and Daly are injured.
Watson. Barely noticed him, but he has the class to out.
Brown. Always advocated Watson for 15, but changing back 3 is least of our worries.

Our backs can still cause damage if given quick, front foot ball. Our pack's not strong enough to bully and needs an injection of pace and breakdown competitiveness. Chances are the ***le's gone so let's experiment a bit in the next couple of games.

Against France I'd like to see several changes. Might seem a bit knee jerk, but I've been advocating most for a while.

Marler
George
Sinckler
Launchbury
Lawes
Underhill
Curry B
Hughes
Robson
Faz
May
Te'o
JJ
Watson
Brown

Mako, LCD, Williams, Itoje, Mercer, Care, Ford, Nowell.

Agree with most of this but Hughes adaquat is simply not fair when he is fit (we know he wasn't today) he is excellent, he isn't as good as Billy V but let's face i, who is he is a specimen few in world rugby can compete with, I am an avid Wasps fan so have seen plenty of him.

I would love to see robson but part of me thinks we would be better off trying Ben Velocott, he is insanely quick and Just seems to be a player given a chance that could really be one to watch, possibly too soon just like the idea of really bedding someone in sooner rather than later.

 

[TommiG88]

Did anyone pick up on Martin Johnson's comments (I think at half time) when he implied that all the England camp thought they had to do for this game was turn up and it was theirs? He was critical of that attitude actually. And then, I have been reading here that 'England have had this coming for some time' when all we have been fed with for the last 2 years is how utterly brilliant England are and how they will probably win the 2019 world cup. And how faultless EJ is as a coach. I thought Scotland showed England to be ordinary at best. And EJ looked like a bulldog chewing a wasp at the end (before the end even) of the game. But good TV it has to be said.

And still we are utterly shite, but still dwarf wales' achievements.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Huw Jones and Finn Russell will get the plaudits but I thought Stuart McInally and John Barclay were absolutely immense today. Likewise Gilchrist and Jonny Gray. Scotland's bench has been an issue in the past but Denton & Nel brought a lot when they came on.

Hard lines to England but I'm sure they'll bounce back and get a win in Paris taking it to the last week. Should be an exciting finale.

Rambo is turning into a minor equivalent of Marx. Not so hot at lineout throws but incredibly mobile for a hooker. I'd like to think he has edged ahead of Ford in the pecking order, but is probably not still behind Brown.

Agree on Barclay. I've actually been disappointed that Edinburgh signed him for next year (as they have such talent in the backrow and Barclay is getting on in years), but he showed physical ability that I've not seen from him before.

Every Scottish forward should take a bow really. I've no idea how they competed so well at scrum and the breakdown in this match. Didn't see that coming.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

And still we are utterly shite, but still dwarf wales' achievements.

If we're ordinary at best what does that make everyone else?
We're still ranked 2 in the world (for now, anyway), and have lost 2 games in 2+ years.

We were poor, we have some major issues, but to say England are suddenly an average side after a loss is just laughable.

 

[WilkosLeftBoot]

That was a tough watch, but on reflection, I'm ok with us losing that match as long as we recognise that our weaknesses were seriously exposed. As others have said, the concern is that EJ seems to have really stuck his colours to the mast with some of his selections. If we are going to make changes, it feels like we are really approaching cut-off time and can't really afford to delay much longer at all.

As for Scotland, fantastic performance and absolutely bossed the breakdown. Perhaps not Owens' finest game but like people before have said, even with a different ref, Scotland would obviously have won. Huw Jones just seems to be getting better and better - at risk of sounding a bit knee-jerk, it maybe highlights our lack of go-forward in the midfield, but it's not a problem easily solved. I would still love to see Daly given a go at 13, but with Jones seemingly decided that he's a winger, I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Shades of Pocock & Hooper from Barclay & Watson today, they were a proper nuisance and I think give a real blueprint of how to beat and England side playing a backrow with little to no breakdown ability. It's surely time to end the Lawes at 6 experiment, but it's a little unclear as to what we would do to solve the balance issue. Robshaw/Underhill doesn't offer a whole lot in attack - it's a real shame Simmonds is injured beacuse 6. Robshaw/Underhill 7. Simmonds 8. Hughes looks a nice balance. As a side note also, I though Hughes played pretty admirably considering his long absence and had him down as my MOTM for England (not much competition, I know). Very hard to pick a MOTM for Scotland, but I'd probably go for one of the flankers.

All in all, as ever, the pack is crying out for more carriers and more breakdown ability - not an easy problem to solve, but that's why EJ is getting paid enormous wedge. 2 very hard games to come.

Would love to see Scotland play like that consistently - if they do so against Ireland, it'll be a wonderful match.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

If we're ordinary at best what does that make everyone else?
We're still ranked 2 in the world (for now, anyway), and have lost 2 games in 2+ years.

We were poor, we have some major issues, but to say England are suddenly an average side after a loss is just laughable.

This. I think the rankings are really accurate in rugby, it's fair that we will have to beat you away to overtake you because otherwise all we can say will be that we had a marginally better championship than you (I'm taking it a little bit for granted that we have the championship, don't see England putting four away in Paris) but nothing in the past 18 months apart from that suggests we're better. Going away to complete a slam, fair enough after we stopped you last year.

 

[TommiG88]

So, reflecting on today's team with the benefit of a couple of bottles:

Mako. Invariably better from the bench.
Hartley. Time's up.
Cole. Time to try an alternative
Launch. Not one of his best, but worth his place
Itoje. Average at the moment. Move Lawes back to lock against France. Itoje to bench or be rested.
Lawes. Abandon the 6 experiment. He's a lock. Some crass mistakes overshadowed some good stuff.
Robshaw. Eddie got it right first off. Willing and industrious, but that's not enough, especially in the 7 shirt. Got walloped at breakdown and one paced. Not a cover for 8.
Hughes. Adequate stand in for Binny when fit. He wasn't. Some good moments and he'll be fitter in a fortnight.
Care. Looks better as finisher. Time to try Robson. Wiggles really shouldn't be in picture.
Ford. Never liked him and Faz as combo. Looks great, when game going his way, but goes missing when it doesn't.
Faz. Cuts the odd nice line, but not a real running threat. Time to move him back to 10.
May. Fine, he stays.
JJ. Poor game, but he stays because Manu's still not found his mojo and Slade and Daly are injured.
Watson. Barely noticed him, but he has the class to out.
Brown. Always advocated Watson for 15, but changing back 3 is least of our worries.

Our backs can still cause damage if given quick, front foot ball. Our pack's not strong enough to bully and needs an injection of pace and breakdown competitiveness. Chances are the ***le's gone so let's experiment a bit in the next couple of games.

Against France I'd like to see several changes. Might seem a bit knee jerk, but I've been advocating most for a while.

Marler
George
Sinckler
Launchbury
Lawes
Underhill
Curry B
Hughes
Robson
Faz
May
Te'o
JJ
Watson
Brown

Mako, LCD, Williams, Itoje, Mercer, Care, Ford, Nowell.

Imo, Itoje over launch