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I know that stats do not tell the whole story but Toby's 6N stats were pretty incredible... pretty sure he made more tackles than any other Welsh player, more yards than any other Welsh forward and a high number of offloads. Judging by a lot of comments I've read on TRF this last month or so I'd say he is nearer the most underrated player.

I take the stats with a pinch of salt to be honest. I've seen elsewhere that stats different between companies. Some I have seen put the likes of Lydiate and Jenkins above Faletau. Toby has one major issue which is going to hold him back, which is his hands. They are like Teflon mits at times and also his awareness is shocking, costing Wales and at times the Dragons chances of tries. At the moment for me both Denton and Morgan are better options that him.
 
While all of that may be true, it's worth pointing out that the Lions aren't solely made up of Welsh players.

You speak the obvious truth... I actually picked Morgan in my XV but felt Toby was getting criticised a little harshly and wanted to redress the balance.
 
All depends what game you want your 8 to play. Faletau and Heaslip are good carriers, but if you want your 8 to be a go-to man in attack you clearly pick Morgan or Denton. If you're looking for reliable tackling and counter-rucking, then Faletau and Heaslip are great workhorses with all round skills. Faletau's dropped off a little, people have worked him out a little and he's got second-season syndrome, but he's still a very reliable and hard-working player.

Me personally, I'd be putting an emphasis on defence over attack here, and what with the fact my Lions team would have Ferris at 6 (probable) and a pair of carrying locks (not sure they're gonna do this tbh), which means I'd be looking at one of Faletau and Heaslip, probably Heaslip atm - but a lot can change quickly.
 
What does Lydiate have to do to overtake Ferris in people's opinion? I'd personally already have him ahead of Ferris as he's a much more consistent player, and is the kind of player that every team needs, especially against the likes of Pocock. I'd have thought picking up player of the 6 nations (rightly so, despite the crazy selection process) may have been enough, but obviously not.

Lydiate brings the best out of Warburton, and if we're gonna compete with one of, if not the best openside in the world in Pocock, we need Warburton at his best, and that requires Lydiate alongside him.

As for the Faletau v Morgan v Denton v Heaslip debate, I honestly don't know. I'd have Heaslip at the back, and probably not on the plane at the moment, but that's a form thing. I think we've got to see more of Denton and Morgan before deciding, I think it's also important to take into account their workrates. I didn't pay much attention to Denton's workrate during the 6 nations. He was eye catching in his barnstorming runs, but what was his defence and work in the tight like, anyone take more notice? As a watcher of the Scarlets, I think it's safe to say that Morgan's main attribute is his carrying work. He's not the hardest of workers in the tight, although his defensive work is good. Faletau was great in the 6 nations I thought, but possibly not in the classical, ball carrying way. He, along with Lydiate just worked their socks off. He's got his faults, as Cymro has pointed out. If he can work on those two negative aspects of his game, then it'd be tough to look past him.
 
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What does Lydiate have to do to overtake Ferris in people's opinion? I'd personally already have him ahead of Ferris as he's a much more consistent player, and is the kind of player that every team needs, especially against the likes of Pocock. I'd have thought picking up player of the 6 nations (rightly so, despite the crazy selection process) may have been enough, but obviously not.

I'm in the Ferris side in this debate, he's a beast of a ball carrier and a rucker although concedes more penalties at this area than Lydiate, but is offers more front foot ball on attack than Lydiate, some of Ferris' performances for Ulster this season have been phenomenal

good arguments for both though, I actually think Ferris is more suited to playing 7 than O'Brien by the way but that is a different debate
 
I'm in the Ferris side in this debate, he's a beast of a ball carrier and a rucker although concedes more penalties at this area than Lydiate, but is offers more front foot ball on attack than Lydiate, some of Ferris' performances for Ulster this season have been phenomenal

good arguments for both though, I actually think Ferris is more suited to playing 7 than O'Brien by the way but that is a different debate

This could depend on who plays at 8 then. If Morgan or Denton plays 8 then you don't need a ball carrying blindside, and hard graft becomes more important. With a backline that's likely to include Roberts, Tuilagi/Davies and North, is a ball carrying blindside really needed? With Pocock on the pitch, I'd say a grafter is more important, and this is where Lydiate excels. I'd argue that along with Dussatoir, Lydiate is one of the best tacklers in the game at present, and that's important, possibly more so than ball carrying in the modern game where defence is such an important part of the game.

I know Ferris is a great player, always enjoyed watching him. But the last few times Wales and Ireland have met, Lydiate and co have easily shut down the likes of Ferris and O'Brien's ball carrying.
 
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I think the fact that the Welsh backrow are much more of a complete unit than the other home nations back rows and therefore they don't shine as individuals. Think this is why most people outside of Wales are mentioning 6. Ferris 7. Rennie 8. Morgan/Denton.

Imo if everyone is fit Warburton has to play, Lydiate and Ferris are both world class but specialize in different things (tackle/yardage respectively) so it depends on the game plan (personally I'd pick Lydiate) and 8. is difficult... do you choose Faletau to complete the unit or go for a carrier like Morgan or Denton. Be interesting to see how they go in the next 6N.
 
What does Lydiate have to do to overtake Ferris in people's opinion?

Be a better player AND offer more to the Lions team in Australia.

I'd personally already have him ahead of Ferris as he's a much more consistent player, and is the kind of player that every team needs, especially against the likes of Pocock. I'd have thought picking up player of the 6 nations (rightly so, despite the crazy selection process) may have been enough, but obviously not.

Lydiate brings the best out of Warburton, and if we're gonna compete with one of, if not the best openside in the world in Pocock, we need Warburton at his best, and that requires Lydiate alongside him.

I am struggling to think of bad days for Ferris at this point. He's been consistently good to awesome this season except when his team has disintegrated so much he simply doesn't have a chance. See England, and to an extent whenever Ireland play Wales. Yes, the Welsh back-row have the edge in these games. They should do for a number of reasons. They are a more balanced unit. They play behind a superior scrum - that gives them the front foot, the psychological edge, the fresher front five to assist them around the park. And they are asked to do less, as the Welsh back-line contains several super-strong carriers, while the Irish back-row are asked to do all their normal duties AND do all the major carrying AND shore up a 10-12 axis that can't really take Roberts on the charge. Not only will they get tired, they are also the main targets and easy to shut out, particularly as Ireland appear to have neither the wit or the will to move it wide and try and get a back-row coming onto it at speed aimed at space. Even in these games I'd say Ferris has notably been one of Ireland's better performers. Which is why I don't put too much mileage on Lydiate & co shutting down Ferris & co when they meet. Besides, they're not playing each other, they're playing Australia.

I was initially tempted to put Lydiate into my current pencilled Lions XV. He has a good balance with Warburton, is a very consistent gainline defender, and is very fit and hard working. I think, particularly given that the quality of the Australian backline, defence will be important. It was very 50-50 in my mind at one point - and then I read this http://www.scotsman.com/news/interv...r-and-former-scotland-international-1-2195602

It's a good read, read it, but I'll quote the pertinent part to my article so you don't have to:
"The only area of concern for me is pure blinding pace because Australia have four or five seriously fast backs."

I don't think Lydiate is slow, he's always seemed a decent athletic specimen to me, but his current main contenders for the 6 shirt are seriously fast. Ferris and Croft would not look out of place as international wingers. And, if you think that a serious amount of attention will have to be paid to pace over hard grounds, the ability to get out and reinforce the backline and (crucially imo) the ability to get back and make that cover tackle, then all of a sudden the balance swings back to Ferris and Croft. Against Australia, it's more important to consider how the blindside is going to go covering back and chasing a blindside-attacking Genia than how well a flanker does at stopping big units smashing at the gainline. Nor do I think the chop tackle is the right tactic for Australia, who'll be happy to risk the odd turnover for quick ball. The choke tackle seems a far better way to go.

And, for me, Ferris over Croft is easy unless Croft really hits his best again. So there we go. I'm picking Ferris as I think his pace will be needed out there.

I also think Ferris is just an outright better player tbh. I can't think of any other blindside who I see force people back in the tackle so regularly. People talk about Lydiate's work rate and tackle count and fair play, it's really good; Ferris is equally good in this area. Ferris made 63 tackles to Lydiate's 43 in the Six Nations (and both only conceded 3 penalties). He's a better carrier, both tight and wide, and while I can't really comment on Lydiate's ball skills, Ferris' are pretty good. People seem to have forgotten that when Ferris was in the Heaslip-Wallace-Ferris combination back in 2009, it was Ferris doing most of the donkey work - and doing it really well. He got into the Lions based on that donkey work. He is a fantastic grafting blindside as well as a fantastic bally-carrying blindside. If you ask me, Lydiate is a fantastic player who seems to be do one facet of the 6 role really, really well. Ferris is a fantastic player who can do just about everything it's reasonable to ask of a 6, combined with genetic aberration athleticism - there are a very short list of players in rugby simultaneously as quick and as strong as him.

Ultimately, I wouldn't be displeased if an on-form Lydiate got in; he's a great player. I think 6 is genuinely the hardest position to pick for in the Lions in terms of whittling down the quality. No one's even mentioned Kelly Brown yet due to his injury - I think he's superb. Robshaw seems forgotten, but he's an excellent grafting blindside. Ryan Jones, great worker, O'Brien's more a blindside than anything else... the list really goes on and on here. But I'd pick one of Ferris or Croft first because I think outright pace is the most important attribute here, and after that its Ferris.

I also don't think we should be so quick to crown Warburton. He's the forerunner, and a superb player, but he was quiet this tournament and both Tipuric and Rennie were better than him. I'd like to see those two (and Barclay if he ever returns to form, and any English bolters over the next season...) push him all the way. I'm assuming its Captain Warburton, but the competition has gone up massively imo.

edit: Statistics from the Torygraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/fixtures/3538935/Rugby-Union-Statistics.html
 
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Right, sod it, I'm bored, so I'm just going to outline my Lions team in tedious detail...

1. Gethin Jenkins (Defence will be key, best defensive prop out there, that was easy)
2. Rory Best (Similarly, I pick the best defensive hooker out there)
3. Adam Jones (I want one of the three to carry, Jones is probably a better carrier - and conveniently a better scrummager too)
4. Matt Garvey (No, I'm not taking the ****. I want a hard-working ball carrier with good athleticism, and I think he's probably the best at that around, although I might change my mind on watching more of Ian Evans.)
5. Richie Gray (Needs to stop seagulling as much, but essentially like Garvey, but better lineout and athleticism minus a slight loss in grunt)
6. Steven Ferris (Reasons given above. Probably after more graft than carrying from him)
7. Sam Warburton (Stick him on a roving role supporting the carrier and looking for turnovers)
8. Toby Faletau (Changed my mind again already, want an 8 to tackle his heart out up close)

9. Mike Philipps (Is there anyone else?)
10. Toby Flood (I want to attack Australia's fringes and I've seen him do an absolute masterclass at that. Assuming he'll be in form then though)
11. George North (Well duh)
12. Jamie Roberts (Even if there was anyone else, I'd still probably pick him. I want him to run at Quade Cooper's face all day and ideally force Pocock into making the tackle there rather than jackaling outwide)
13. Jon Davies (Want his pace and defensive understanding with Roberts, even if BOD is really tempting)
14. Chris Ashton (This assumes he might be in form, but similar logic to Flood. Should be looking for the offload from Roberts all day long)
15. Leigh Halfpenny (Think he's the best 15 at stepping into the line at first reciever, which may be neccesary with Flood - or whoever - being asked to play very close to the gainline.

16. Matthew Rees (Him or Ford throwing? Rees)
17. Paul Doran-Jones (I need a both-side prop who favours tighthead as I'm more likely to take off Jones than Jenkins and think he's the best available for that)
18. Dan Tuohy (Again, the athletic carrier thing)
19. Dave Denton (Not sure about this one tbh, but I figure I'll need to replace Faletau most - ideally I'd have more of a tackle count merchant though. Can Lydiate play 8?)
20. Conor Murray (I think... praying for a bolter tbfh)
21. Rhys Priestland (Again, picking for gainline attacking - plus can play FB)
22. James Simpson-Daniel (Admittedly, would probably drop dead if selected given his luck, but given I want wingers who enter the line, couldn't think of a better. Bowe's the more realistic option)

Will freely admit there's some shockingly out of form players selected in the hope they'll be there in a year. Right now you'd have to promote Priestland (not in great form either mind) and bring in Sexton, and JSD and bring in Bowe. Think 9 and 10 are our weakest points.

Attacking tactics are to hammer the living daylights out of their fringe defence until a) you've made a break there and scored or b) the fly-half reckons enough backs have been sucked in/Pocock's buried and its really on out wide. Maybe I should pop them a copy of my CV while they're haggling over Gatland...
 
Peat, I think you're missing some irish. Politically, I mean. Sexton over Flood, one of the wingers (Bowe, Trimble) over JSD.


I'm gonna postulate a theory here: I think we all overrate Gray and Denton because we notice them more on the pitch due to their shiny blond long hair.
 
Is it my imagination or is the side lining up to face Aus looking better/clearer than the Lions side that faced SA in 2009? Difficult to compare sides 3 to 4 years apart but that is the idea I am getting. Only place where they look a bit wanting possibly at this stage IMO is at scrumhalf but I have to admit I havn't watched the 6N this year and am going by what I saw in the RWC2011.
 
Peat, I think you're missing some irish. Politically, I mean. Sexton over Flood, one of the wingers (Bowe, Trimble) over JSD.


I'm gonna postulate a theory here: I think we all overrate Gray and Denton because we notice them more on the pitch due to their shiny blond long hair.

Pfft. Scotland got absolutely reamed in terms of numbers last time, they'll live with it. I imagine there'll be a fair few Irish lads going but playing mainly in the dirt trackers - and most of them have the talent to make it into the main team if they hit form at the right moment. Sexton v Flood is very marginal with me picking on the basis of Flood's last performance against Australia, if I'm honest I don't really want either and am praying for a George Ford bolt from heaven, and JSD is just magic but Bowe and Trimble both close for me though, I'd probably take them both in the party.

Blonde hair helps! I think the fact they're playing in a fairly shat team as the main carriers helps too.

edit: Stormer - better yes, clearer no - and I can't agree more with you about scrum-half.
 
Peat, I think you're missing some irish. Politically, I mean. Sexton over Flood, one of the wingers (Bowe, Trimble) over JSD.


I'm gonna postulate a theory here: I think we all overrate Gray and Denton because we notice them more on the pitch due to their shiny blond long hair.

I think it certainly makes players stand out more. Schalk Burger seems to get blown up a lot less with short hair.
 
Thinking about it, it's very good of Robshaw to agree to play 6 for England at all. He has been the form 6 in England, absolute quality, but nobody can pick him in their Lions 15 or 22 as he's been played out of position. It says alot because he's one of the best 6's in the isles. Thinking about it, it's quite selfless of any player to agree to do that. Perhaps he might start to think differently about it as the Lions tour approaches.
 
Thinking about it, it's very good of Robshaw to agree to play 6 for England at all. He has been the form 6 in England, absolute quality, but nobody can pick him in their Lions 15 or 22 as he's been played out of position. It says alot because he's one of the best 6's in the isles. Thinking about it, it's quite selfless of any player to agree to do that. Perhaps he might start to think differently about it as the Lions tour approaches.

You mean 7 right?

Lad got to play for England tbh. Hardly selfless to agree to do that. Plus, he's been playing with a 7 on his back and roughly the same game all season, so not that much out of position. Or rather, he's been a bit out of position for a long time. Don't think it's going to greatly effect his chances of going on the tour and once he's on it, who knows? Right now Robshaw loses out for me on the raw pace thing. If it wasn't for that I'd have put him on the bench. Shame he doesn't play more at 8, I want a grafting tackle machine with great hands, that's Robshaw to a tee...
 
You mean 7 right?

Lad got to play for England tbh. Hardly selfless to agree to do that. Plus, he's been playing with a 7 on his back and roughly the same game all season, so not that much out of position. Or rather, he's been a bit out of position for a long time. Don't think it's going to greatly effect his chances of going on the tour and once he's on it, who knows? Right now Robshaw loses out for me on the raw pace thing. If it wasn't for that I'd have put him on the bench. Shame he doesn't play more at 8, I want a grafting tackle machine with great hands, that's Robshaw to a tee...

Sorry, yeah i meant 7, I should remember not to post while on the move in future. And 'selfless' was clearly the wrong word, I mean he's clearly going to take the chance to play for England. Fact is that with Croft playing like dog s*it until the last few games, Robshaw should have been our nailed on 6. He shouldn't have had to settle for 7, thus mitigating his opportunity to excel at his strengths(to be fair, he did still play like a 6 for the most part I suppose). I think the fact that he's losing out is evidenced by the fact that nobody on here has put him as an option for a lions match-day 22, when in fact, he should have been competing with Lydiate and Ferris for that honour. I agree he would be a strong bench option for the most part, but for a lions coach, say Gatland, who has just had a tough call to make between Ferris and Lydiate and 6, I can't see him then overlooking the one not chosen for a bench spot.
 
Imo Croft was playing fine, and with Wood out it was always going to be Croft and Robshaw, but thats somewhat by the by.

Personally, I thought Robshaw did get a chance to display his strengths (except for his creative handling game), but has been hampered slightly by a) the somewhat disjointed nature of the team and b) the fact he's a very understated player. A lot of the stuff 6s do is unseen work, great stuff - hence the Welsh propaganda campaign to get rightful recognition for Lydiate, hence people tending to forget Ferris just a carrier - and hence people missing a lot of the good stuff Robshaw did in making it a couple of yards across the gainline, making a ton of tackles - or not missing, but rather forgetting.

But yes, Robshaw does deserve a bigger noise in this. After all, if you're looking for a 6 to tackle all day and do grunt work, Robshaw's 64 tackles with 1 missed was the best posted by an Isles player in the Six Nations; only Dusuatoir was possibly better (can't see his stats, can't be sure how many tackles he missed). Dan Who? ;)
 
There can be a big difference between a tackle and a tackle though. The reason for most pundits and fans selecting Lydiate as player of the tournament (despite not being top of the tackle charts), is due to the ferocity of the majority of his tackles. The France game exemplified this, with so many of his tackles being made behind the gainline. It was his tackle that stopped Dusuatoir early, behind the gainline, exposing him to the Welsh defenders, allowing Alun-Wyn to turn the ball over and ultimately resulted in Cuthbert's try. This is his biggest strength, and something he does better than anyone else imo.

Shaun Edwards (the probable defensive coach for the Lions) has come out and said that he thinks Lydiate is the best defensive player on the planet due to his line speed and low technique which stops the ball carrier at source, behind the gainline and often isolated. When you have Warburton and Jenkins following him, this is where most of Wales' turnovers originate.

The choke tackle worked well for Ireland against Aus in the WC, but I highly doubt that it will be a tactic employed by the Lions if Gatland get's the job. I feel that it's a risky tactic anyway, and one which Wales managed to take advantage of this 6 nations, where they were able to gain a few more yards and still get the ball to ground. Gatland and Edwards' tactics are always going to be to try and get the ball carrier to ground as quick as possible.
 
The choke tackle worked well for Ireland against Aus in the WC, but I highly doubt that it will be a tactic employed by the Lions if Gatland get's the job. I feel that it's a risky tactic anyway, and one which Wales managed to take advantage of this 6 nations, where they were able to gain a few more yards and still get the ball to ground. Gatland and Edwards' tactics are always going to be to try and get the ball carrier to ground as quick as possible.

And the risk of bringing the ball carrier to ground is two guys steam straight in, clear your guys out, Genia whips it away and the Australian attack has started again before your defence has realigned. I regard that as fairly risky, and far more risky when playing the Australians (they of the underpowered pack and backline from hell). They play their game at a far higher pace than ours domestically, they're used to cleaning out McCaw and Brussow. They'll love it. My first rule of playing Australia would be to slow their ball down whenever possible, and that starts by wrapping the tackler up and not allowing him to earth.

I don't disagree with you that Gatland and Edwards are likely to stick with their tried and tested, but I'll admit to a slight bit of worry should they do that. It'll be very interesting to see how the 4 games Wales have against Australia go this year; right now, Wales haven't beaten Australia in 4 games, not since 2008. If that sort of run continues, then it'll be quite difficult to argue that the Welsh tactics are the right ones to play Australia with, particularly when every other home nation beat Australia in their last confrontation...

If I were to pick a team in the believe that we'll be looking for the wood chop, I'd change mine and bring in Cole and O'Driscoll, as they're both very strong over the ball, and I'd want as many jackals as possible. And I'd still have Croft/Ferris at 6, as I'd regard a linebreak as really inevitable... go ahead and prove me wrong in the summer though!
 
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