Lions: Return to Oz

[dullonien]

And the risk of bringing the ball carrier to ground is two guys steam straight in, clear your guys out, Genia whips it away and the Australian attack has started again before your defence has realigned. I regard that as fairly risky, and far more risky when playing the Australians (they of the underpowered pack and backline from hell). They play their game at a far higher pace than ours domestically, they're used to cleaning out McCaw and Brussow. They'll love it. My first rule of playing Australia would be to slow their ball down whenever possible, and that starts by wrapping the tackler up and not allowing him to earth.

I don't disagree with you that Gatland and Edwards are likely to stick with their tried and tested, but I'll admit to a slight bit of worry should they do that. It'll be very interesting to see how the 4 games Wales have against Australia go this year; right now, Wales haven't beaten Australia in 4 games, not since 2008. If that sort of run continues, then it'll be quite difficult to argue that the Welsh tactics are the right ones to play Australia with, particularly when every other home nation beat Australia in their last confrontation...

If I were to pick a team in the believe that we'll be looking for the wood chop, I'd change mine and bring in Cole and O'Driscoll, as they're both very strong over the ball, and I'd want as many jackals as possible. And I'd still have Croft/Ferris at 6, as I'd regard a linebreak as really inevitable... go ahead and prove me wrong in the summer though!

Can agree with you there. How Wales go against Aus in the Summer will tell us a lot about how certain individuals fair against them, and how Gatland and co's current tactics fair.

 

[big ginger 8]

What does Lydiate have to do to overtake Ferris in people's opinion? I'd personally already have him ahead of Ferris as he's a much more consistent player, and is the kind of player that every team needs, especially against the likes of Pocock. I'd have thought picking up player of the 6 nations (rightly so, despite the crazy selection process) may have been enough, but obviously not.

I counter with what does Ferris have to do to over take Lydiate in your and others opinion? Ferris isn't inconsistent he was just injured for ages he's always played to a high standard since he's come back

There can be a big difference between a tackle and a tackle though. The reason for most pundits and fans selecting Lydiate as player of the tournament (despite not being top of the tackle charts), is due to the ferocity of the majority of his tackles. The France game exemplified this, with so many of his tackles being made behind the gainline. It was his tackle that stopped Dusuatoir early, behind the gainline, exposing him to the Welsh defenders, allowing Alun-Wyn to turn the ball over and ultimately resulted in Cuthbert's try. This is his biggest strength, and something he does better than anyone else imo.

Shaun Edwards (the probable defensive coach for the Lions) has come out and said that he thinks Lydiate is the best defensive player on the planet due to his line speed and low technique which stops the ball carrier at source, behind the gainline and often isolated. When you have Warburton and Jenkins following him, this is where most of Wales' turnovers originate.

The choke tackle worked well for Ireland against Aus in the WC, but I highly doubt that it will be a tactic employed by the Lions if Gatland get's the job. I feel that it's a risky tactic anyway, and one which Wales managed to take advantage of this 6 nations, where they were able to gain a few more yards and still get the ball to ground. Gatland and Edwards' tactics are always going to be to try and get the ball carrier to ground as quick as possible.

Ferocity of the tackle yeah Lydiate's great at that but how can you think Ferris isn't? He often leads Irelands defensive line up and usually drives his man back at least 5 strides.

I'd say it'd be stupid not to use the choke tackle in Aus they don't have a strong scrum and don't usually commit to big a number to do the breakdown.

http://youtu.be/ukRY1GUVUXg

http://youtu.be/KwB99lnvy-M

http://youtu.be/KQp-7fHbxb4

Just a reminder showcases his pace (which is amazing for a man of 116kg) a lot unfortunately not too much of his tackles

In my mind this is how it breaks down:

Lydiate is a very good player

Feriis is a great player.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

In my mind this is how it breaks down:

Jenkins is a very good player

Healy is a great player.

Is that how it breakdowns in your mind regarding Jenkins and Healy too?

 

[big ginger 8]

Is that how it breakdowns in your mind regarding Jenkins and Healy too?

No. Not at all. People get very offended when you say Healy was having a better 6n (before the England game) than Jenkins. It's not as if I can't see the flaws in Healy's game I just think a lot of people still think he's the same player as he was in 2010.

 

[dullonien]

I counter with what does Ferris have to do to over take Lydiate in your and others opinion? Ferris isn't inconsistent he was just injured for ages he's always played to a high standard since he's come back

I asked it because Lydiate has just won player of the 6 nations, which to me suggests he's currently the better player. I've always been a big fan of Ferris, and I'm not suggesting that Lydiate is the best player ever or anything, but if both players continue in the same vein, then I'll continue to pick Lydiate over Ferris.

 

[big ginger 8]

I asked it because Lydiate has just won player of the 6 nations, which to me suggests he's currently the better player. I've always been a big fan of Ferris, and I'm not suggesting that Lydiate is the best player ever or anything, but if both players continue in the same vein, then I'll continue to pick Lydiate over Ferris.

And I'll continue to pick Ferris.

 

[Conal]

I asked it because Lydiate has just won player of the 6 nations, which to me suggests he's currently the better player. I've always been a big fan of Ferris, and I'm not suggesting that Lydiate is the best player ever or anything, but if both players continue in the same vein, then I'll continue to pick Lydiate over Ferris.

i think its nearly down just to personal taste between them

however someone did mention a good point about the irish front 5

put lydiate behind the irish scrum and ask him to do the same job's as we ask ferris
also out ferris behind the welsh scrum

im not sure what would happen but id imagine ireland expect more out the 6 than wales ( to sort of make up for half the pack being quite shite and a tiny backline)

 

[bushytop]

6. Lydiate 7. Warburton 8. Ferris... (the distant sound of Aussies coughing up their VB in trepidation).

 

[j'nuh]

Why pick a non-specialist 8 when we've got so many talented ones?

Also, it seems silly to be having a discussion of which 6 to take. There's not a lot between Lydiate and Ferris, whereas Croft is showing flashes of being great again. It would be difficult to make this decision now, let alone more than a year in advance. Same with 8. It would seem Warburton's miles ahead of the pack at 7, but Youngs has shown that you can lose every shred of talent you have in less than a year. (Although for England and the Lions sake, I hope he regains it.)

 

[dullonien]

And I'll continue to pick Ferris.

Fair enough, I can understand that because Ferris is a world class player, and being Irish I'd expect you to favour him. This was the reason for my original question of what does Lydiate have to do to overtake Ferris, because imo Lydiate is currently the better player, as the player of the 6 nations award seems to back-up (which follows on from an impressive world-cup). I can understand bias for your own players (I've got plenty of it), but what would it take for Lydiate to overcome this?

 

[Peat]

Why pick a non-specialist 8 when we've got so many talented ones?

Also, it seems silly to be having a discussion of which 6 to take. There's not a lot between Lydiate and Ferris, whereas Croft is showing flashes of being great again. It would be difficult to make this decision now, let alone more than a year in advance. Same with 8. It would seem Warburton's miles ahead of the pack at 7, but Youngs has shown that you can lose every shred of talent you have in less than a year. (Although for England and the Lions sake, I hope he regains it.)

Sir, for pointing out the obvious futility of the Lions debate, I sentence you to death by Nuns. Take him away, girls!

 

[big ginger 8]

Fair enough, I can understand that because Ferris is a world class player, and being Irish I'd expect you to favour him. This was the reason for my original question of what does Lydiate have to do to overtake Ferris, because imo Lydiate is currently the better player, as the player of the 6 nations award seems to back-up (which follows on from an impressive world-cup). I can understand bias for your own players (I've got plenty of it), but what would it take for Lydiate to overcome this?

To be as good allround as Ferris. Both are I'd say probably equal tacklers though many Welsh people (no offense) couldn't except there is a better tackler unless it's Warburton. Ferris is obviously the better carrier, he's got better hands and is better in the lineout IMO. I'd say Lydiate at being a groundhog (though Ferris is nigh on impossible to shift when he gets over the ball) and Ferris is a better counter rucker. When Lydiate is better in more aspects I'll say he's better.

 

[bushytop]

To be as good allround as Ferris. Both are I'd say probably equal tacklers though many Welsh people (no offense) couldn't except there is a better tackler unless it's Warburton.

I think the reason I "like most Welsh people" rate Lydiate's tackle as slightly superior is due to the amount of turnovers which occur from his tackles in particular.

Everyone talks about the chop tackle but he is able to execute a variety... and generally uses what turns out to be the right type of tackle at the right time.

Apart from that I would rate Ferris as clearly the better attacker while Lydiate is maybe the best defensive player in Europe on current form.

 

[dullonien]

To be as good allround as Ferris. Both are I'd say probably equal tacklers though many Welsh people (no offense) couldn't except there is a better tackler unless it's Warburton. Ferris is obviously the better carrier, he's got better hands and is better in the lineout IMO. I'd say Lydiate at being a groundhog (though Ferris is nigh on impossible to shift when he gets over the ball) and Ferris is a better counter rucker. When Lydiate is better in more aspects I'll say he's better.

And that's what I'd call blatant bias. Sorry for being so blunt, but If that were all true then why was Ferris not more destructive in the 6 nations? Why did Lydiate pick up two man of the match awards in four games, and why did he get voted player of the 6 nations? Ferris was good, but not great, and ultimately was the reason Ireland lost against Wales, with a slightly reckless tackle in the last few minutes of the game (even though I still maintain that it didn't deserve a yellow card). I've already said that I'm a big fan of Ferris, and there's very little between him and Lydiate, just that Lediate's in the form of his life at the moment, and has been for quite a while.

I admit that I'm probably slightly overrating Lydiate, but you are severely underrating him, and at the same time slightly overrating Ferris as well.

 

[big ginger 8]

And that's what I'd call blatant bias. Sorry for being so blunt, but If that were all true then why was Ferris not more destructive in the 6 nations? Why did Lydiate pick up two man of the match awards in four games, and why did he get voted player of the 6 nations? Ferris was good, but not great, and ultimately was the reason Ireland lost against Wales, with a slightly reckless tackle in the last few minutes of the game (even though I still maintain that it didn't deserve a yellow card). I've already said that I'm a big fan of Ferris, and there's very little between him and Lydiate, just that Lediate's in the form of his life at the moment, and has been for quite a while.

I admit that I'm probably slightly overrating Lydiate, but you are severely underrating him, and at the same time slightly overrating Ferris as well.

If I'm underrating Lydiate you're definitely underrating Ferris it's all very well saying you're a big fan. Using a slightly reckless tackle as an example for him not being destructive in the tournament is ridiculous. Ferris did have a very good tournament did you actually watch him I mean he was possibly our player of the tournament certainly our best forward. The system for player of the tournament is as everyone knows incredibly flawed I would not have picked Lydiate (I wouldn't have picked Ferris either) the two motm awards were both picked by BBC obviously deserved the one vs France but I'm not so sure about the Scotland one.

I'm also basing as a player not on form as it's in a year. I said Ferris is a better all round player and can you deny this without an ounce of bias?

 

[SelimNiai]

This has been a good debate and props to both how you've both kept to the point and not resorted to other methods.

If you put a gun to my head and said pick one to play on Saturday for the Lions I'd pick Ferris. There is pretty much nothing to split the two in terms of what they do well, their faults and also how good they both can be. They are as close to identical players as there is in NH rugby at the moment.

Let's face it we'd be happy, nationalistic bias aside, to see either line up for the Lions next summer

 

[dullonien]

If I'm underrating Lydiate you're definitely underrating Ferris it's all very well saying you're a big fan. Using a slightly reckless tackle as an example for him not being destructive in the tournament is ridiculous. Ferris did have a very good tournament did you actually watch him I mean he was possibly our player of the tournament certainly our best forward. The system for player of the tournament is as everyone knows incredibly flawed I would not have picked Lydiate (I wouldn't have picked Ferris either) the two motm awards were both picked by BBC obviously deserved the one vs France but I'm not so sure about the Scotland one.

I'm also basing as a player not on form as it's in a year. I said Ferris is a better all round player and can you deny this without an ounce of bias?

Am I underrating Ferris? I never said he was a bad player, or even just an ok player, I called him a world class player because that's what he's proven over the years, but I don't automatically see how Ferris is better in all the departments you claimed. It's not as if Lydiate's current form has been a flash in the pan, he's been steadily getting better since his Wales debut, and has been in awesome form for the past year. If you're not going to use form as a guide, then what's the point of any of this, because we might as well all state our favourite players and be done with it.

As for your last statement, that's a difficult thing to answer. Overall I'd say that Ferris has a more complete skillset, but that doesn't automatically translate into being automatically the better player. All I can say is that if Wales currently had the choice of both players, and going on their recent international form then I'd pick Lydiate, but that could easily change.

I agree that the system for player of the tournament is incredibly flawed, but I feel Lydiate was still deserving of the award regardless. He had the biggest impact of any player in the tournament, and can't think of any other player who deserved it more than him.

Let's face it we'd be happy, nationalistic bias aside, to see either line up for the Lions next summer

I agree with that. I'd be perfectly happy to see Ferris line-up, in the same way as I'd be happy to see Kearney at fullback over Halfpenny etc. I wouldn't be happy with Healy over Jenkins though

 

[Draggs]

I'd rather see Ferris play, so Lydiate doesn't get hit with the Lions curse.
Don't want Gatland or any other of our lads risking anything.

 

[Peat]

I'd rather see Ferris play, so Lydiate doesn't get hit with the Lions curse.
Don't want Gatland or any other of our lads risking anything.

Out of idle curiousity, how many share sentiments like this, and how many don't?

I'd rather see the Lions win than England sweep off the Grand Slam personally.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Lions. While they obviously don't represent any political union anymore, we share a very common culture with the other nations of the British Isles, so I have no problem with the tour from a nationalistic standpoint as I know some people over here do.

Also, it's a proper rugby tour.