Liam Williams - apology

[Big Ewis]

I don't want to go in on either side of the debate going on but I have to question this. I've never heard anyone suggest the word gay is offensive. There's plenty of other words which are used to insult gay people but gay isn't one of them. I mean it's one of the words in LGBT you know.

that's true. I don't believe the phrase "I am gay for Ryan Reynolds", for example, really pertains to anything derogatory or hateful.

 

[TommiG88]

Do you think it's acceptable behaviour to black himself up? simple question isn't it?

Defending it on the grounds of it was all a joke is just as bad as perpetrating the act yourself, it's casual racism if you can't see that then there is no helping you.

***edit: actually don't bother, i'm just gonna block you again. much easier for all.

Perfect.

I never defended it for being a joke. I said it was stupid, however I don't think it's racist. That's my opinion!

 

[j'nuh]

I don't want to go in on either side of the debate going on but I have to question this. I've never heard anyone suggest the word gay is offensive. There's plenty of other words which are used to insult gay people but gay isn't one of them. I mean it's one of the words in LGBT you know.

Woop. This is one I have a bit of authority on.

Context is important here. "Gay" used to describe someone's sexuality is not offensive at all. "Gay" being used as an adjective to describe something negatively or flamboyantly is... complicated. Just as the "n word", "c word(s)" etc. is complicated.

One thing a lot of people who fit in with the majority (male, white, middle class etc.) get uppity about is that "they get to use it and we don't". There is a maaaaaaaaaassive reason for this. If you're ever in a position where you are in a minority group and the rest of the room is a part of the majority, and they use these words easily, you get incredibly uncomfortable. If a gay person is, say, in a boardroom with 5 other people, and the other people are comfortably throwing the word "gay" around ("your suit is so gay" etc) then you really do feel uncomfortable. Without knowing more about these people, they could be anywhere between homophobic bigots to gay activists. The problem is that since you don't know what their intentions are, you don't know how to construe what they say. Now, if one of them revealed that they were gay and were making these jokes, it clearly removes any chance of what they were saying being done out of malice. They can't be gay and homophobic. But if a person reveals that they are straight and still say these things, you still have no idea what their intentions are. It could be disparaging, it could be friendly.

I'm bisexual and have straight friends that make these jokes. I'm comfortable with it because I know these people very well. I know what their intentions are when they make these jokes. If a person I didn't know made exactly the same joke, I'd feel a little put out by it. Which is why making these jokes in public, on tv, on forums etc. is nearly always a bad idea.

Also, the reason gay people DO make gay jokes (as black people make black jokes etc.) is because it de-powers these words and feelings. The idea is to remove the connotations and stigma that these words have had over time. And it's working! Kids are showing a greater degree of empathy towards minorities over time. Racist and homophobic language is used less in schools, making the schools a lot more inclusive. As is the workplace. Homophobes and racists may still exist, but they now have to hide it. It gives more power for minorities to be themselves. It's the real success story of the "PC brigade".

edit: A bit of advice and a cautionary tale for teenagers on here. When I was a teenager, I didn't tell anyone that I was bisexual simply because people made "gay jokes". When I made friends with someone who didn't make these jokes, I did tell them eventually, and it did get out to everyone else. What I found out was that the people who made the gay jokes who I didn't tell earlier, were actually completely fine with it. Their intentions weren't to put out gay people. But in these matters, it's about the listener's perceptions, not the speaker's intentions, that construes whether something is offensive or not. I felt uncomfortable because I perceived homophobia, not because people intended homophobia. This is completely normal, you don't want to be coming out to people you would perceive to be a threat. By being PC and not making these jokes, you construct a much more comfortable atmosphere for people to be themselves.

 

[profitius]

For decades the general population of the world thought it ok, to make black people sit at the back of a bus, drink from seperate water fountains, pay them less, enslavement, mock black people as a source of entertainment by blacking up.

All those comments prove is there are some deeply ignorant people out there.

Look as i've said all along, the act does not make Williams a racist, but that doesn't mean the act in itself was extremely offensive on a racial basis and as such racist in itself.

You can moan about the PC brigade but defending it is just as ignorant as perpetrating the act.



that is literally akin to saying "i'm not racist, some of my friends are black".

Well lower class whites were not allowed mix with upper class whites. They mocked the lower classes and made them work 70 hour weeks. Is that classism? People in all countries had it tough in the past but the PC brigade mainly focus on blacks because that's the easiest one to complain and kick up a fuss about.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Or maybe because of the incredibly brutal, and not that long ago, treatment of PoC in western 'civilised' nations.

 

[Peat]

J'nuh speaks wisdom.

It's all about context innit - all of this.

 

[Shaggy]

Well lower class whites were not allowed mix with upper class whites. They mocked the lower classes and made them work 70 hour weeks. Is that classism? People in all countries had it tough in the past but the PC brigade mainly focus on blacks because that's the easiest one to complain and kick up a fuss about.

Not sure what your point is here - it's not okay to speak out against racism because another group has been discriminated against because of their social class?

Both are wrong

 

[goodNumber10]

Is that classism?

Yes. Next question?

 

[dragos03]

I don't think that's racist, surely not intended to be.

It's still offensive and stupid though.

 

[profitius]

Not sure what your point is here - it's not okay to speak out against racism because another group has been discriminated against because of their social class?

Both are wrong

My point is too wrongs don't make a right.

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Yes. Next question?

Well I might just come and sue you after what your ancestors did to my ancestors. I'm sure you'll be glad to pay as you must feel embarrassed and humiliated for being English. Giving me your money will ease your suffering.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Moderators, I think this thread should be closed before things get way out off hand.

 

[SelimNiai]

Moderators, I think this thread should be closed before things get way out off hand.

If you have an issue with it, report it and we can consider. For the record though, I think its OK so far, as long as it doesnt descend into name calling then I see no reason for it to be closed

 

[j'nuh]

Moderators, I think this thread should be closed before things get way out off hand.

tbh, I think this discussion is too important not to have. It hasn't really gotten out of hand yet. I'm sure there will be a lot of anxious mods analysing this thread to its bone though.

 

[SelimNiai]

tbh, I think this discussion is too important not to have. It hasn't really gotten out of hand yet. I'm sure there will be a lot of anxious mods analysing this thread to its bone though.

Not anxious but more the hope that this mature topic is discussed maturely

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

tbh, I think this discussion is too important not to have. It hasn't really gotten out of hand yet. I'm sure there will be a lot of anxious mods analysing this thread to its bone though.

Sorry but anything that has something to do with Liam Williams in it is not too important unless if its a lions call up or a nomination for six nations player off the tournament.

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It was embarrassing enough for him scoring against us.

 

[goodNumber10]

My point is too wrongs don't make a right.

yes but brushing over wrong as humor

Well I might just come and sue you after what your ancestors did to my ancestors. I'm sure you'll be glad to pay as you must feel embarrassed and humiliated for being English. Giving me your money will ease your suffering.

My ancestors aren't English...

 

[goodNumber10]

If you have an issue with it, report it and we can consider. For the record though, I think its OK so far, as long as it doesnt descend into name calling then I see no reason for it to be closed

I did actually message Hulkster to say maybe it needs closing but it's settled down since then and there has been some decent discussion.

I think there is a bigger discussion point here than just is Williams Racist/was this casual Racism, and that's just tolerance in Rugby on the broader spectrum.

Rugby is becoming more high profile by the day and getting a lot of new and different people involved, we've seen a few things lately that don't reflect well on our game, Owens at twickenham and with Womens Rugby becoming far more high profile it has often come in for less than flattering.... attitudes are changing and not always in a positive direction.

 

[profitius]

My ancestors aren't English...

Doesn't matter. The money will still be taken from your taxes. Thank you very much!

 

[goodNumber10]

Doesn't matter. The money will still be taken from your taxes. Thank you very much!

Lol! Nor do I live in England.

 

[Big Ewis]

tbh, I think this discussion is too important not to have. It hasn't really gotten out of hand yet. I'm sure there will be a lot of anxious mods analysing this thread to its bone though.

I agree. This is clearly, clearly a topic to debate in as much detail as possible.