[June Tests 2018: 3rd Test] South Africa vs. England (23/06/2018)

[All Black]

There goes the England Ive been hearing about.

Jonny May is probably the best winger in world rugby right now.

 

[duncanb]

There goes the England Ive been hearing about.

Jonny May is probably the best winger in world rugby right now.

Not far off has faults in defence but attack wise you are 100% correct.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Not far off has faults in defence but attack wise you are 100% correct.

Is that even that true anymore? It certainly used to be but now I'd say he's pretty good; quite possibly our best winger defensively (Nowell's tackling's outstanding but he just doesn't have the pace at times). He's only missed 1 tackle this tour if that stats are to be believed.

 

[spartan32]

Well done England. Good to see Robshaw make a decent comeback. For me he's a great example of a true gentleman player and an excellent ambassador for the sport and the England setup.

Cips back and does what he does best. Uses his excellent vision to change the entire face of a game in one perfectly executed piece of skill. This lad needs more starts and chances to prove he is the no. 1 10 in English rugby.

Penalty count dropped, much better game management, simple rugby played, and still plenty to improve on but a win none the less. All much more encouraging.

Stand out players for me this series

Curry. Wasn't sure at first but the lad gets a lot done and still so young. Bags of potential right there

May. Just keeps getting better and better.

We clearly have an issue at 9. Young's poses almost no threat and other options need to be considered and quickly.

I think we need at least one heavy ball carrier in the centres. Let's hope Teo gets back for the AIs

Our pack need to sort themselves out. Well off the pace for much of this series. Maybe down to various absences but needs sorting.

Think there is still hope. We just need to be more consistent and improve our D. Line speed not great and first up tackles not too hot either. We all know the breakdown needs sorting.

Happy to end the series with a win. Well done SA good to see you getting back on track. I'll look forward to our boys smashing you at HQ.

 

[Scotty]

That game we won but still had the same issue when they attacked fast we had little answer in defence but the conditions didnt allow it, im worried the AB will rib our defence apart, cips got stuck in defencibly but got bumped off a couple of times and went high( like ford but not as well) conditions alowed and he would have added a spark to our attack, but i am still worried.

We deserved the win as we played the conditions better but dry pitch and it would have been alot tighter.

9 youngs was so slow constantly. We had spencer on the bench to speed it up, we had LCD as george wasnt exactly smashing it and simmonds who would have stopped robshaw being at 8 but non were used, yes we won but didnt learn as much as we would have liked.

Mako first choice but needs a bloody good rest to get back to his best and imo genge needs a decent shot off the bench, we know what marler can do.

Going on these are the finishers id like to see as we decided not to use any today

George sinkler genge. Is great impact front row,
Lawes to come back on the bench(or iseikwe)
Simmonds adds something different
Spencer. I like off the bench but god knows about first choice
Loz for me brings alot
Nowell to make impact. With may daly brown starting.

Gone for the bench id like to see after this series,

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm not sure Mako is first choice in my mind. Marler's long been underrated - people don't seem to notice how hard hitting he is in defence. I think this is partly because he's normally tackling guys who are at least the same size as him - so there aren't too many scrum half demolitions. His scrummaging might not be world class, but it's very strong.
Before the tour I had been thinking that Mako's handling was too important not to have from the start, and Marler's penalty count was not great. But Mako wasn't really brought to bear in that regard, and his discipline was shot.

I'm really frustrated we didn't get to see Genge, because he's potentially a very good scrummager as well as tight/loose carrier. He's a little scatty (which I think is in part down to his dyspraxia), but he's fairly well rounded.
I think Genge getting game time should be a priority in the Autumn. Because if he's able to be a scrummaging weapon, then he could be a viable starter.

 

[Scotty]

Mako has looked tired and over worked for ages now he needs a good rest and i think mako on form vs marler in form, mako wins imo, scrummageing has improved, strong carrier and tackler but just offersmore with his offloading and a stronger carrier especially if the game opens up but thats just my opinion.

Couldnt agree more on genge,(dyspraxia is a ***** ive got it too, although im crap at rugby anyway lol) his ability to step in contact to change the point of attack, it makes them few eextra meters and puts us on the front foot but needs game time to prove himself at this level,

On a side point sinkler upped his workrate this week and had a pretty good game.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You say his scrummaging has improved, but the evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Surprised to see so many people say drop sinckler, thought he went well yesterday and most of our scrum pens were him vs beast.
Think marler/sinck should be our first choice props atm

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Add others have said, our weakness is we can't handle it when the game speeds up and this game has papered over that mauve crack.

I'd also love to see genge play, he doesn't just run into contact but tries to hit the shoulder instead. Really all players should do that but most try to bulldoze their way through a player. I also think Williams would be a better starter with sink on the bench. Jones must try some other 9s, if for no other reason than having cover for injury

 

[Durbanite]

England simply had much better game management and the wet nullified a lot of our power, I think we gained a lot of insight into the team and fringe players. I do think we would've struggled less in the dry, and the infringements wouldn't have helped England out as much, but our wet weather play was shoddy and it was fairly obvious we weren't really playing the conditions, which was a mistake.

Talking points

Would've preferred Mbonambi and Pollard started and Brits/Ralepelle and Elton came off the bench

Got to say a large part of the problem of Saturdays game, not to say Ralepelle had a shocker but he gave away 3 easy points and imo shouldn't have really been involved in the starting team in first place. That being said he performed his duties better then I had expected he would. As for Jaintjies, he might've had better luck coming off the bench but he cracks under pressure and what game of footy is devoid of pressure? Ultimately he's played himself out of selection, even with Rassie saying he'll play him in the future imo. It's a pity but with all the chances he's had his failings are getting a little bit stale.

Gotta love Faf, but when things aren't working for him the game gets tough for his team, I love his speed and attitude but you can't score or set up a score every time you touch the ball, think he would do well to learn when the game needs to slow down a bit and just get through some steady phases rather than going nuts with a dart or rocketing passes at guys who aren't necessarily ready to receive them or are sucking lungfulls. Still miles ahead of the next 9 and wouldn't trade him for any other tbh. A pity we didn't get to see much of Papier as seems to be the case with most 9s we put on the bench.

Kriel is a good player, he can really be dangerous on attack and I love the way he twists through tackles but the guy needs to learn to 1. Stop running laterally, run straight. 2. Again, stop running towards touch and cutting out all the space out wide, he doesn't do it nearly as badly as he used to but it's still an issue. 3. He needs to learn when to hold and when to delay a pass. 4. When in a 2 on 1 situation, attack the defenders inside so he doesn't drift to the outside man once you've completed your pass, or better yet run straight at him and offload.

Esterhuizen I'm sad to say had a very dodgy performance, I thought being a Sharkie would've helped him adjust to the wet. He missed tackles, threw stray passes and just wasn't his usual best. That being said he's STILL the best 12 we've got imo, he's got huge power, deft hands and a great ability to interpret the opposition and put others in gaps, especially after he busts the line. One of the many reasons I prefer him over DDA is his huge left boot, which the boks didn't use once. I really hope Rassie hasn't soured toward him and gives him another go.

Gelant is always fun to watch, I think we can mold him into a real general if we're careful. He was solid under the high ball and the grubber that gave us the try was superb vision. He just needs to learn to be a little bit more patient and there's no problem in my mind of playing him and le Roux interchangeably at 15 for the foreseeable future, especially seeing as if we have him on the bench we can end up with cover for 15, wing and perhaps even centre as well as yet another capable boot in the backline.

Considering all that, I am very pleased. We won the Series and got to give our fringe players a go, we learned a lot about our wet weather capabilities (mainly that we have a lot of work to do) and things are still very much looking up for Erasmus's boks. Can't wait for TRC, it's a pity Duane is out but I'm fairly optimistic about our chances this year and have a heap more faith in Rassie and the pack compared to AC, time will tell

 

[Openside7]

England played a lot better and after silly penalty at the start, they found their discipline. However this definitely wasn't as strong a SA side as the previous two tests, so I really hope EJ goes away and has a serious think about how to address the issues from the first two tests as there were still glimpses of them in this one. Especially around the breakdown.

Front Row: Marler and Sinckler played well, Sinckler especially carried far better. Mako does look like an impact sub, rather than a starting player, especially against a strong front row. Would have like to see Harry Williams on earlier as I don't think he's had a chance to shine this tour. George looks like he might be suffering from too much playing time. Maybe he can find some of the old form with a rest, but looks like Hartley's place isn't under threat. Shame LCD didn't get a chance to play, but I don't think he's in contention anyway.

Locks: Far better, though issues at the line out. Itoje's discipline was far better. Still don't think anyone is a guaranteed starter if Lawes and Kruis come back in form.

Backrow: Still needs work. I've been saying Hughes isn't good enough for a while and especially when not fit. If you have Billy and he's not working, I don't see what else Hughes brings honestly. Robshaw had a better game, but it was a slower game and he's been humiliated recently in fast pace games. Sooner Shields cements his place the better. Curry has had a fantastic tour and now we need to nurture him to be better and not ruin the parts of his game that are already outstanding. Wilson showed that he is a genuine option, but who knows if he'll get another chance.

9&10: Youngs looks a shadow of what he was and is so slow. However with Robson clearly not being picked and Care having a nightmare 6N's who else is there. Why Spencer didn't come on I don't know, because he would have had to be frozen in place to be any slower. Cips played well personally and didn't have much chance to shine, but showed glimpses of what he can do, especially with his kick through. Needs to start in AI's if for no other reason than to keep the pressure on Ford.

Centres: Farrell his usual self, with nothing spectacular except for his kicking from the tee. Awful decision for the drop goal. Slade has blown his chance, which is a shame as I was a big supported of his, but he just hasn't transitioned to international rugby.

Backs: May showed why he needs to be in the team. Still would like to see him go sideways less, but can't have everything. Daly has struggled, but I think he would be a genuine option if he played at 15 for Wasps, which isn't going to happen with Le Roux there. Brown played well, however he has lost his pace. I feel that for the world cup we need him at 15 to secure the high ball, with our faster players on the wing. Oh also Solomona came on, what a pointless sub.

This tour did help clarify a few issues with regard to the England team and, indeed, English rugby. Plainly we struggle to match the pace that southern hemisphere teams play at, our set piece is also underpowered and, against well organised and physical defences, we struggle to get over the gain line and our defence appears to lack organisation and physicality. I am unwilling to read too much into Saturday's victory, despite the fact that it is welcome, because the South African team was quite experimental and many of those selections did not pay off. Also the weather put England into a position of comfort, enabling them slow the game right down. There appears to be too much attention being paid by many observers to particular selections for the England team - the Ford v Ciprianni debate be a case in point, and not enough attention being paid to the bigger picture. Unless Jones and whoever else employs as his assistant coaches get to grips with living with the pace of southern hemisphere teams (and Ireland's), organize a team that can at least control their own ball in the set piece and dominate the gain line in both attack and defence, we will always come a poor second. I frankly fear the drubbing that New Zealand might dish out in the Autumn series the way things are at the moment.
Obviously, much of achieving these goals does depend on selecting the right players, so does putting into place a coaching regime that lifts standards to meeting these aims - one that must break out of the rather insular standards of the English premier league. Having said all this, I am glad that Jones seems to have finally accepted the need for genuine open side. Long overdue!

 

[higgik]

Wasn't really the best opportunity for him but I get your point. He's definitely done enough today and over the last 2 years to get a shot in the AIs, but I'm also really keen to see Farrell at 10 with Loz and Te'o/Manu if one of them is actually fit.

Like to see Faz, Te'o, Loz. Think this combination would be better suited to getting the wings and Fb into play as playmakers are split.

 

[Fuzzy du Plessis]

I was just listing the centres rather than explicitly stating IC or OC as the positioning will undoubtedly vary based on attack/defence, set-piece/turnover/open play and whether the ruck is central or out wide.

Sometimes you want playmaker -> bosh/dummy runner -> playmaker and sometimes you want playmaker -> playmaker -> bosh. Honestly the distinction between 12 and 13 matters less to me than 11 and 14.

 

[higgik]

I was just listing the centres rather than explicitly stating IC or OC as the positioning will undoubtedly vary based on attack/defence, set-piece/turnover/open play and whether the ruck is central or out wide.

Sometimes you want playmaker -> bosh/dummy runner -> playmaker and sometimes you want playmaker -> playmaker -> bosh. Honestly the distinction between 12 and 13 matters less to me than 11 and 14.

Agree you need mix, including wings and FB. These 3 need to be able to see running lines early, but also be able to truck it up in traffic to take load off others.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Janjties was awful. I hope that is the last time we see him in a Bok jersey. I think he a player who is great at super rugby level but just not quite good enough at international level. Frustrating but he's had chance after chance.

Yes he was. He was dreadful! I think Rassie wanted to give him a chance to prove himself, and he basically threw it away. Between him and Chilliboy, I can't decide who was the poorest.

Chilliboy was the direct result of 5 of our penalties, 3 of which was converted into points.

Must have been nice for England to play away from home, but have home weather and conitions. Man that slip was probably one of the highlights of the day for me:



But the best part was Faf smashing that big guy back like a sack of potatoes.

And by the way... Faf is a master of the universe:

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Nowell to make impact. With may daly brown starting.

So you wouldn't have Watson in the 23?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Surprised to see so many people say drop sinckler, thought he went well yesterday and most of our scrum pens were him vs beast.
Think marler/sinck should be our first choice props atm

He was better, but was v ordinary in the first two when it counted. Jury's still right out.

TH is a tough one. Cole is the best scrummager so that really ought to be the end of the argument, but it isn't.

Really interested to see what Dai Young can do with Brookes. And is Hill staying with Saints?

 

[Scotty]

So you wouldn't have Watson in the 23?

Sorry my bad, i thought i put:
11 may 14 watson* 15 daly 23 nowell

or 23 brown to start with.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He was better, but was v ordinary in the first two when it counted. Jury's still right out.

TH is a tough one. Cole is the best scrummager so that really ought to be the end of the argument, but it isn't.

Really interested to see what Dai Young can do with Brookes. And is Hill staying with Saints?

I'd question whether Cole is the best scrummager to be honest. See how he is after the summer off, theoretically he is but he's been poor lately.
Agree that sinck had average at best initial 2 games, but the combo of him and marler was excellent so I'd keep it going forwards into the AIs