[June Tests 2018: 2nd Test] South Africa vs. England (16/06/2018)

[TRF_heineken]

And Pietersen is the only one there of note and he was less poached and more driven away by yourselves also British Mummy.

Most players people whined about when it came to Cricket lived there all of two minuites and happened to be born there because there parents were in that country at the time. Before they were even in secondary school they were over here.

Lets be honest how of these 'mercenary' players go along to become all time greats? Very few.

Again, I'm not disputing my own country's involvement in this mess.

But you make a good point in these foreigners not becoming all time great's. Which begs the question, why settle for mediocrity? You poached so many guys who are just average. They couldn't make the cut in their own country, so they go somewhere else where they might be seen as a better player. Yet 95% of them doesn't even get to 20 caps.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I bet England lose more players to Scotland, Wales and (going forwards) Ireland than we take in from NZ/SA

 

[Nudger]

I agree England are the biggest offender and I dont like it.

Half the Welsh team qualify for england

 

[McTallshort]

Half the Welsh team qualify for england

They qualify but are they actually English? No

 

[McTallshort]

Again, I'm not disputing my own country's involvement in this mess.

But you make a good point in these foreigners not becoming all time great's. Which begs the question, why settle for mediocrity? You poached so many guys who are just average. They couldn't make the cut in their own country, so they go somewhere else where they might be seen as a better player. Yet 95% of them doesn't even get to 20 caps.

This

 

[Scotty]

I wont have changed my mind as I haven't with Nathan Hughes but at least he was actually lived in the UK

He lived here first for 3 years because he wasnt eligible...he had calls from fiji but said no he wants to play fir england. Shields has a right to play for england and its the rfu sayinh he cant play if hes not in the AP, i fijian with no english heritage or past decided he wanted to play for us so came over and played for 3 years, do you think he would have done that if he had an english parant? No he'd have done what shields did and im ok with it. We should pick the best players for our team soon as they are eligible.

 

[Nudger]

They qualify but are they actually English? No

They are as Welsh as shields is English eg
Moriaty born in England played u20 England
Toby faletao his obviously welsh

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

All this eligibility stuff's quite depressing.

Anyone got any thoughts on what tomorrow's result might be?

 

[SomeOke]

I think Andre Esterhuizen is on the cusp of the squad, sadly he probably suffers from being just a 12, where as Kriel can cover multiple positions and so can Gelant to a lesser degree.
As to whether DDA is better than Esterhuzien - short answer is no, that said DDA is the incumbent, and when your 11/13/14 are basically complete international rookies I think having another rookie at 12 was just a bridge too far for Rassie.
If DDA had been awful this season he would have dropped him I'm sure, but I think he has done just enough in Rassie's eyes to maintain a spot. Esterhuizen is definitely knocking on that door though, make no mistake.

As to the predicted result, I think England will be better, and they have a ref that is more suited to them than to us. Therefore logically SA will have to raise there game to stand a chance, it's going to come down to whether we have sorted out our defensive systems. Impossible to call, but I would say England by 3 this time (hope I'm wrong).

 

[Nudger]

All this eligibility stuff's quite depressing.

Anyone got any thoughts on what tomorrow's result might be?

Is their a game tomorrow??

I don't think it's going to be a 10 tryfest England by 5

 

[TRF_heineken]

All this eligibility stuff's quite depressing.

Anyone got any thoughts on what tomorrow's result might be?

Yes, let's move on to the game before this thread gets derailed.

I think it will again be a close affair. But I think the scoreline will be less than what it was in Joburg. Maybe something like 26-20 in favour of the Boks.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Think we can give up on this chat now, here's a man who obviously doesn't feel the need to justify his right to play for England so why should we?

 

[Gena_ZA]

Correct according to Sport24, Willie le Roux at 10 with Faf de Klerk taking over the goal kicking duties in case of Pollard having issues.

So if Shields was made unavailable who would come in at 6? Would Robshaw still be in the squad? Seems like an improvement to me especially now that SA have the extra jumper in PSdT

@unrated @SomeOke
It's less a question of how DDA is playing compared to his best self and more a question if DDA is better than Andre Esterhuizen. I'd like to hear your thoughts as to why he wasn't selected, I had assumed he would miss the first test due to the LA test which is why I'm put out. Is it just a question of experience? Form? or does Esterhuizen simply not fit into Rassie's idea of "pace late in the game" like a Jesse Kriel does?

Rassie needs to blend ability with experience, had he used Andre just look at the combined caps from 11 to 14.
His time will come, hopefully after we beat them in the 2nd test, he can be unleashed in Cape Town

 

[Gena_ZA]

As for the game, perfect winter weather and a very fast field.
Home ground and altitude advantage.
England will be better and so will the Boks.
Eddy is desperate and Rassie is not, he is rather enthusiastic and willing to gamble and try things out.
Eddy needs results now and Rassie is looking at the bigger picture (RWC Japan)

Boks to take this by 10 or more

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Obviously Shields is a Kiwi, his parents moved to New Zealand from England as small children and only recently moved back to England (they have strong accents), they have said in interviews that there has never been a England shirt worn in their house (except the 2003 final "because you can't support the aussies"). Obviously Shields would have played for the All Blacks if he had been picked.

HOWEVER, what's the point in giving a guy stick for wanting to play at the highest level, be part of an event like the world cup and get paid for doing his job!? It's madness...if you have an issue, focus your ire at World Rugby and their eligibility rules. If you think 3 points is too much for a penalty goal, don't get annoyed at the guy who gets good at kicking them or the coach that selects him, get annoyed at the law makers.

It looks like Gus Pichot is striving to change things around some qualification criteria, so I wouldn't be surprised if certain aspects, especially around residency, are updated in the near future. But as someone who has first hand experience playing international rugby (albeit for a somewhat less esteemed rugby nation than England) through parents heritage, I can confirm that it is entirely possible to fully embrace the pride and spirit of representing that nation without having lived there or "paid taxes".

 

[Which Tyler]

But it's a bit Hypocritical as England has been the country that has been exploiting this the most.

any evidence of that? As it doesn't ring true on any front (talking specifically rugby here, as this is an eight thread ona rugby board and a concert about andugby player)

And they started this whole cycle of project players and getting guys who would be eligible because of the residency rule.

Any evidence eofnthat? I ask because it's never happened in England, but is official policy in Ireland and Australia, and has in past been for Scotland and Wales

If we take a position such as inside centre as an example. Before Faz was your first choice, England went through a bunch a of foreigners as they didn't have international quality players for that position that were born in England. Brad Barrit, Manu Tuilagi, Stuart Abbott, Riki Flutey & Ben Te'o comes to mind.

So what?

I don't want to get too technical on this matter with regards to where they were born, went to school or where they grew up or played age grade rugby, but as soon as the "stigma-seed" has been planted of a player that has been "poached" it's nearly impossible to change someone's mind about his loyalties and that he's just a mercenary for hire and that the good old traditions of pride for king and country still applies.

All I'm saying is that England is the biggest offender of this nature, and has been for the longest time of all the nations.

Repetition =/= accuracy, you still need to prove this

After they dropped off the pedestal of being the best in the world after the 2003 World Cup, they went on a binge to get the guys to get them back on top and the attitude of winning by all means necessary has created this vicious cycle.

Any evidence from this? It's still palpably untrue

Perhaps the administrators should have a change of mind and follow the idea of SARU when selecting players for national duty. Even if it's just for a short while until the residency rule increases. At least by then the heat will be a little bit less.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It looks like Gus Pichot is striving to change things around some qualification criteria, so I wouldn't be surprised if certain aspects, especially around residency, are updated in the near future. But as someone who has first hand experience playing international rugby (albeit for a somewhat less esteemed rugby nation than England) through parents heritage, I can confirm that it is entirely possible to fully embrace the pride and spirit of representing that nation without having lived there or "paid taxes".

I doubt they're going to change them again in a hurry, Pichot was instrumental in increasing the residency period to 5 years recently.
Something I agree with.

I find his choice of individual case to pick a bone with odd though, given there are much more obviously exploitative cases all the time.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Generally the only reason England get mentioned most of the time, is because of our size and our media love to bash us.

 

[Reiser99]

I seriously want to game to start. Mainly to end this ridiculous discussion.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I seriously want to game to start. Mainly to end this ridiculous discussion.

If you think the game will end this discussion you are wrong.
England win - Down to picking SH mercs
England lose - Down to picking SH mercs

This discussion has been going on for years and will never stop.