[June Tests 2018: 2nd Test] South Africa vs. England (16/06/2018)

[Leonormous Boozer]

I do feel bad for England, it's harder for them to disguise their Mercs. Not many people even realise Gearoid Payne and CJ O'Stander aren't Irish.

 

[unrated]

If you think the game will end this discussion you are wrong.
England win - Down to picking SH mercs
England lose - Down to picking SH mercs

This discussion has been going on for years and will never stop.

​

Most of the discussion about Shields has been infighting between the England supporters, So its not SA supporters who will claim this, if England win we will bash the Boks, if Boks win we will be happy and slowly regain some confidence which will lead to arrogance and then the cycle starts again.

 

[unrated]

If you think the game will end this discussion you are wrong.
England win - Down to picking SH mercs
England lose - Down to picking SH mercs

This discussion has been going on for years and will never stop.

​

Most of the discussion about Shields has been infighting between the England supporters, So its not SA supporters who will claim this, if England win we will bash the Boks, if

Boks win we will be happy and slowly regain some confidence which will lead to arrogance and then the cycle starts again.

I do feel bad for England, it's harder for them to disguise their Mercs. Not many people even realise Gearoid Payne and CJ O'Stander aren't Irish.

I seriously didn't know that Payne is not Irish​

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Most of the discussion about Shields has been infighting between the England supporters, So its not SA supporters who will claim this, if England win we will bash the Boks, if Boks win we will be happy and slowly regain some confidence which will lead to arrogance and then the cycle starts again.

English supporter and press make way more of it than most other countries.
From what I gather SA,Aus and NZ have more of an issue with our clubs poaching talent.

 

[unrated]

From what I gather SA,Aus and NZ have more of an issue with our clubs poaching talent.

Damn right ! This affects us directly at the provincial level. (the three that hurt the most was Lambie, Marcell Coetzee and Frans Steyn but they don't play in the AP)


On the weekends game, I think its too close to call, I'm scared England's desperation to stop their lossing streak will give them an edge, and after facing the Jones led Japan I will never underestimate his coaching ability again, if he could do it with Japan he can surely do it with England.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I do feel bad for England, it's harder for them to disguise their Mercs. Not many people even realise Gearoid Payne and CJ O'Stander aren't Irish.

Aye, Brad's blond beard is a shining beacon of Maori inheritance.

It's pure Mana incarnate.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Damn right ! This affects us directly at the provincial level. (the three that hurt the most was Lambie, Marcell Coetzee and Frans Steyn but they don't play in the AP)


On the weekends game, I think its too close to call, I'm scared England's desperation to stop their lossing streak will give them an edge, and after facing the Jones led Japan I will never underestimate his coaching ability again, if he could do it with Japan he can surely do it with England.

I don't think desperation will do much for England, English fans will know better than me but good 'backs against the wall' performances don't seem to be a thing for England in rugby or football. When England are strong they'll win and win and win without a whole lot of trouble but when it rains it pours. If they're to win this week it'll be through systematic improvement rather than mental improvement in my opinion and I don't see it happening because I think Eddie has lost his marbles.

England fans - If this tour is lost 3-0 would it be time to start considering a 'damage limitation' replacement for Jones prior to the RWC, would you wait and give him the Autumn or do you think he has to stay regardless?

 

[ratsapprentice]

England fans - If this tour is lost 3-0 would it be time to start considering a 'damage limitation' replacement for Jones prior to the RWC, would you wait and give him the Autumn or do you think he has to stay regardless?

That depends entirely on what you think Jones is trying to do with the team.

Everyone thought he had ****** Japan the year before the last RWC.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

England fans - If this tour is lost 3-0 would it be time to start considering a 'damage limitation' replacement for Jones prior to the RWC, would you wait and give him the Autumn or do you think he has to stay regardless?

No way will Jones be sacked.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That depends entirely on what you think Jones is trying to do with the team.

Everyone thought he had ****** Japan the year before the last RWC.

That's fair, I don't think the two are comparable though. England shouldn't really be losing 6 in a row to sides that are or were ranked below them whether they're experimenting heavily or not.

I don't like Jones at all though so this isnt coming from a purely neutral and curious point of view - as well as obviously being hypothetical at this point in time.

 

[ratsapprentice]

They aren't really experimenting.

The idea is that they are being absolutely hammered during the week to get them in incredible condition for the RWC.
They'll go through a peaking phase in the run up to the RWC after spending 18 months doing a huge amount of volume.

Sacrificing results now, for results later.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

They aren't really experimenting.

The idea is that they are being absolutely hammered during the week to get them in incredible condition for the RWC.
They'll go through a peaking phase in the run up to the RWC after spending 18 months doing a huge amount of volume.

Sacrificing results now, for results later.

Ok, I don't really see that working considering their other commitments but if there's a plan in place let it run I suppose.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

They aren't really experimenting.

The idea is that they are being absolutely hammered during the week to get them in incredible condition for the RWC.
They'll go through a peaking phase in the run up to the RWC after spending 18 months doing a huge amount of volume.

Sacrificing results now, for results later.

It sounds nice until you reach the WC and realise the losses were down to fundamental errors that were ignored for this exact reason and the supreme fitness counts for little if the players are all butterfingers with tunnel vision who can't remember how to play the game legally.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It sounds nice until you reach the WC and realise the losses were down to fundamental errors that were ignored for this exact reason and the supreme fitness counts for little if the players are all butterfingers with tunnel vision who can't remember how to play the game legally.

Look, he may not even be doing it, but that's what he did with Japan.

People were saying the same thing then - that it's going to be a clusterfuck.

 

[All Black]

I'm sure we have all heard coaches point out what ratsapprentice is saying, in that everything they're doing is building towards the RWC. We used a rotation policy under Graham Henry to strengthen our depth by giving a lot of players test experience but the thing is - we had good depth. We could still win with our experimental players. Jones could be doing the same thing and doesn't care about losing as long as he gets a good squad for the RWC. Then again, I do wonder though if it's just an excuse for losing. I mean, did he mention this experiment when England were on a winning streak last year? or is he just saying it now.

 

[spartan32]

Not sure about this one. I think both teams have had a chance to see what the other can do, and so I'd expect a more conservative approach so not as many try's. if we can keep de Klerk quiet (big if), and not fall all over the ball every time it touches the ground begging the ref to ping us, then we may be ok. Still very concerned about the lack of lock cover.

Frankly if there was ever a time we needed a SH Merc to come good it's now. Go ok Brad!! They'll be a knighthood in it for ya.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

England were on a winning streak last year? or is he just saying it now.

Aye to be fair he's been on about it for a while

 

[Gena_ZA]

Also calling Bull**** on this one...
When England won 20 odd games in a row, did they train lighter then, if so, maybe try that again to be frank

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

No way will Jones be sacked.

Too expensive with his contract extension.

They aren't really experimenting.

The idea is that they are being absolutely hammered during the week to get them in incredible condition for the RWC.
They'll go through a peaking phase in the run up to the RWC after spending 18 months doing a huge amount of volume.

Sacrificing results now, for results later.

So the theory goes, but I just don't buy that at all. Confidence, unity, consistency and momentum surely outweigh marginal gains in fitness. And even if, and it's a big if, his hammering theory works and we've got the biggest lungs and shiniest abs that doesn't cure the other tactical, technical and selection problems we've discussed ad infinitum. And he's stark raving mad if he thinks England and Japan should be treated the same way.

I suspect any member of the benchmark setting ABs squad would laugh their heads off at the "Sacrificing results now, for results later" concept.

I think Eddie has lost his marbles. ?

Fine line between genius and madness and right now I'm not sure which side of it he's on. But if you were the paymaster at the RFU wouldn't you be keeping a very very close watch? The national team is the shop window and major revenue generator of the game. Everything started so well, then performances dipped then results followed them - momentum, either way, is massive in sport - remember how invincible we felt when we were winning, we knew we'd always somehow find a way? Unless you're asleep at the wheel you'd surely be having some pretty robust conversations with Jones and also taking private soundings from the dressing room to see how the players really feel?

 

[ratsapprentice]

So the theory goes, but I just don't buy that at all. Confidence, unity, consistency and momentum surely outweigh marginal gains in fitness. And even if, and it's a big if, his hammering theory works and we've got the biggest lungs and shiniest abs that doesn't cure the other tactical, technical and selection problems we've discussed ad infinitum. And he's stark raving mad if he thinks England and Japan should be treated the same way.

It's not about "marginal" gains, it's about significant gains.

I suspect any member of the benchmark setting ABs squad would laugh their heads off at the "Sacrificing results now, for results later" concept.

And I bet you they'd laugh at the English set-up which produces players who aren't fit for elite international rugby.