Italy’s future in 6N

[BeSmart123]

How can they have 36 consecutive losses if they play 5 games a year in the 6N?

Because they play five of the best and best organised teams in the world. They really really have gotten better, remember when they joined the tournament most players had started as amateurs and the sport was completely different. If they played tier two teams theyd have a 36 game win streak- there are a lot of excellent players but top to bottom theyre not a patch on the five nations.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Because they play five of the best and best organised teams in the world. They really really have gotten better, remember when they joined the tournament most players had started as amateurs and the sport was completely different. If they played tier two teams theyd have a 36 game win streak- there are a lot of excellent players but top to bottom theyre not a patch on the five nations.

They hit their peak around 2010, since then they have just fallen further and further behind and it looks as if the process is accelerating.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

They hit their peak around 2010, since then they have just fallen further and further behind and it looks as if the process is accelerating.

The age profile and relative success of their 20s the last 4 years would suggest otherwise. Varney and Garbisi are 19 and 20 for example, there's potential for Italy to have the best half back pairing in the world in 5 years there alone. I'd definitely take Garbisi ahead of Harry Byrne and Marcus Smith. Developing athletes up front will be their challenge, but Zebre and Treviso are relatively competitive there and look to be consolidating.

There Was definitely a dearth of talent there for about 7 years after their 2013 peak but they've been competitive before and I'd back them to be competitive with these half backs again.

 

[bushytop]

Possibly controversial but I wouldn't say Italy are 'actually' a worse Test side than they were 2000-2010... just comparatively worse to the sides who they are playing. The other 5 nations are so much closer (if not better) than the big three SH sides now... we used to be quite a ways off around the turn of the millennium.

Now Italy are playing very good if not excellent test sides in their annual competition rather than a couple of very good test sides and some mediocre ones.

I know that it's painful to watch sometimes... but we would be undoing so much good work if we pulled the plug now. And as @The Alpha Bro mentioned, with their 20's and their half-backs... all the good work could start to bear fruit in the next few years.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

The age profile and relative success of their 20s the last 4 years would suggest otherwise. Varney and Garbisi are 19 and 20 for example, there's potential for Italy to have the best half back pairing in the world in 5 years there alone. I'd definitely take Garbisi ahead of Harry Byrne and Marcus Smith. Developing athletes up front will be their challenge, but Zebre and Treviso are relatively competitive there and look to be consolidating.

There Was definitely a dearth of talent there for about 7 years after their 2013 peak but they've been competitive before and I'd back them to be competitive with these half backs again.

That's absolute Smith slander right there. Rest of the post is spot on tho

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That's absolute Smith slander right there. Rest of the post is spot on tho

I named him after HB on purpose too!

 

[Felipe]

In my view, those who attribute a European essence to 6N are wrong and thus restrict expansion prospects.
I remind you that the tournament was born at the end of the 19th century in the British islands and France only joined in 1910. Nobody would have been surprised and at that time the fifth team was USA and not France. Today we would say that the tournament has an Anglo-Saxon and not a European essence. I say this to justify that there is no more reason to justify the presence of Italy in the tournament than of the USA or Canada. I think that in the year 2000 a big mistake was made incorporating Italy.
USA should have joined the tournament and I can assure you that his progression after 20 years of participation would have been much higher than that of the Italians.

On the other hand, the fact of insisting so much on inflating a country without culture or rugby potential is a lack of respect for countries such as Argentina, Fiji, Samoa or Tonga. These countries have much more rugby culture and much better results and they never received even remotely the same level of support.
Argentina just entered the Rugby Championship in 2012 despite widely surpassing Italy in terms of results.
Worse still is the case of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga that do not even have a major tournament in which to participate.
Italy is a machine of wasting opportunities that it did not deserve to have had. It causes me outrage.

 

[TommiG88]

Because they play five of the best and best organised teams in the world. They really really have gotten better, remember when they joined the tournament most players had started as amateurs and the sport was completely different. If they played tier two teams theyd have a 36 game win streak- there are a lot of excellent players but top to bottom theyre not a patch on the five nations.

My point was the maths didn't add up....

 

[bushytop]

In my view, those who attribute a European essence to 6N are wrong and thus restrict expansion prospects.
I remind you that the tournament was born at the end of the 19th century in the British islands and France only joined in 1910. Nobody would have been surprised and at that time the fifth team was USA and not France. Today we would say that the tournament has an Anglo-Saxon and not a European essence. I say this to justify that there is no more reason to justify the presence of Italy in the tournament than of the USA or Canada. I think that in the year 2000 a big mistake was made incorporating Italy.
USA should have joined the tournament and I can assure you that his progression after 20 years of participation would have been much higher than that of the Italians.

On the other hand, the fact of insisting so much on inflating a country without culture or rugby potential is a lack of respect for countries such as Argentina, Fiji, Samoa or Tonga. These countries have much more rugby culture and much better results and they never received even remotely the same level of support.
Argentina just entered the Rugby Championship in 2012 despite widely surpassing Italy in terms of results.
Worse still is the case of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga that do not even have a major tournament in which to participate.
Italy is a machine of wasting opportunities that it did not deserve to have had. It causes me outrage.

Thing is bud, there is a lot of Europe not really playing much high level rugby... and therefore LOADS of potential expansion there too.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

My point was the maths didn't add up....

run us through your maths?

 

[TommiG88]

run us through your maths?

Last win feb 2015.

7 years multiplied by 5 games. 35. Minus 1 for the time of my post takes it to 34. Minus another 1 as it had to be at least the first game of the 6 nations of 2015. If you take the full 5 it would mean the last win was in 2014.
Therefore it can't be a 36 game losing streak. A 34 at maximum. Without looking at the 2015 6 nations I can't see if it is less.

#pedanticQS

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Last win feb 2015.

7 years multiplied by 5 games. 35. Minus 1 for the time of my post takes it to 34. Minus another 1 as it had to be at least the first game of the 6 nations of 2015. If you take the full 5 it would mean the last win was in 2014.
Therefore it can't be a 36 game losing streak. A 34 at maximum. Without looking at the 2015 6 nations I can't see if it is less.

#pedanticQS

ok, not going to get that specific, think you've summed it up quite nicely at the end there i think we get the vibe

 

[TommiG88]

ok, not going to get that specific, think you've summed it up quite nicely at the end there i think we get the vibe

C*** vibe. I know, I've been told

 

[Kiwiwomble]

C*** vibe. I know, I've been told

i was meaning the vibe of how many losses...but yeah, sure

 

[ChicagoKid]

Since CVC looks to be mirroring the U.S. strategy around paid TV, not only I do expect Italy to stay in the Six Nations, but the tournament to expand to 7 or 8. South Africa is 100 percent going to join. I don't want to hear about "contracts" with the SANZAAR - you have clauses in contracts to leave if you pay enough. And I would expect a big push for Spain or Russia or some other large populace nation as well.

For context, USA paid sports TV has been completely flipped on its head over the past decade. With cord-cutting and streaming becoming the defacto winner, only live sports can bring consistent audiences. So the name of the game is to aggregate the largest populations to generate the highest advertising returns. The NFL just signed a 10yr $100 billion dollar contract with a host of networks including NBC, Amazon, ABC/Disney, CBS, FOX. I would expect CVC to do the same once they get the teams and ratings settled.

So in the future, a South Africa vs England Eight Nations match will be viewable in Ireland by Amazon Prime TV, Sky Sports in England, a paid provider in France, Wales, Italy, South Africa etc.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

so you think the solution to italy not improving over the last 20 years whilst playing teams generally spread over 2-7 in the world....is to add the world champions....

 

[ChicagoKid]

so you think the solution to italy not improving over the last 20 years whilst playing teams generally spread over 2-7 in the world....is to add the world champions....

It's not about Italy's ability to get better. It's about having the largest amount of eyeballs to sell to sponsors and networks. Of course there are risks that Italy will only get worse with the addition of South Africa. But I am guessing CVC will worry about that at a later date.

For Australia, Argentina and NZ, they better have Japan already in negotiations to join the Tri-Nations when this goes done. They will need audience and economic might of Japan behind them.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The Italian union's president, Innocenti, says Italy are in no danger to be removed and that changes to the 6N lineup would require unanimity from all unions and a 15 year transition period!

Il n.1 federale Innocenti: “Il 6 Nazioni non è a rischio. Ma la storia non fa salti”

Il presidente dopo i test di novembre: “Vinta la partita che bisognava vincere, siamo stati lineari. Per fare gli exploit serve tempo. Ci sarà una terza nazionale seniores. Nessuno ci vuole fuori dal Torneo, per la Cvc 60 milioni di italiani sono un valore. E ora un accordo con la Figc”

www.gazzetta.it

Innocenti on raising the Zebre to match Benetton.

"Treviso works at a higher level than the Zebras, it is Fir's duty to bring the Parma franchise to the same level. And I don't see why to give up on equals, when there are so many athletes born abroad but with Italian roots who want to play with us."

Yet another sign that Innocenti's priority is to ramp up the project player side of things to acquire players developed by other unions. As seen by them hosting a friendly with their A team against Romania A this month, one day after another project player qualifies on residency.

In a similar vein Laporte, who has previously made noises about possible expansion of the 6N said in reply to a plea from Rugby Europe that the 6N unions won't expand and they will "protect" the tournament. Almost as if Georgia and Romania are a virus.

Valná hromada evropské ragbyové federace

Ve Francii se uskutečnilo 103. Generální shromáždění Evropské ragbyové federace Rugby Europe. Organizace, která řídí většinu mezinárodních soutěží na Starém kontinentu. Za Česko a Slovensko, zde jako pověřený zástupce, se setkání zúčastnil ředitel…

rugbyunion.cz

All of which means I say ciao to Italy for much the same reasons I said cheerio to Scotland. And Bruce_ma_goosevili is born! Forza Georgia!

 

[higgik]

They haven't been helped with injuries/unavailability to key players. Pollederi who is just as good as any back row player in the tournament, Minozzi, (ruled himself out) and Campanaro looked to have star quality till suffering way too many injuries.

And a very poor administration that cannot sort out issues between clubs and URC teams.
What is needed from the federation
1) go to the French and asking for a couple of spots in ProD2 for Zebre and Treviso. Easier travel, less issues for funding.
2) have a rule that allows French clubs to gave Italian players outside of the non French quota.
3) use the money to develop a proper national league of 12 franchises to with a focus on younger players.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Italy coach comes out saying he would personally be happy with the prospect of promotion and relegation from the 6N and that it might help Italian rugby. I completely agree but I imagine the president of the Italian union will not be best pleased.

Kieran Crowley: I've spoken to Lozowski and Lynagh about Italian selection

Italy coach Kieran Crowley says he has personally spoken to Alex Lozowski and Louis Lynagh about Italian selection in the future

www.rugbyworld.com