Italy v New Zealand - 23/11/2024 (20.10)

[Kiwiwomble]

IMO it should be a home game only thing, but could agree with the above (not that anyone would ever say no)

up until the 90's i think it was only done away from home, because its not just a warcry as much as people like to simplify it to that, its a challenge to the other team "come on, this is going to be an epic clash"....but its also supposed to be an honour to receive, it was a thank you to the hosting team and their supporters. Thats why we do them a funerals (we're not threatening the deceased) or when someone we know receives an award or something, its supposed to be a celebration

watch this, its a honour to recieve

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Pretty messy game for the ABs, but somehow understandable, as being the last of a grueling long year.

Overall, a mixed first year for Razor, whose mindset favored a more conservative approach in selection, probably due to the fear of not losing too many games on a very tough, opponent wise, calendar.

The first row unit has now a great depth, but what about the second row? Is Scott Barrett the answer as NZ's captain? Is him or Va'ai the undisputed starters or Razor should try bringing in more imposing players, weight and height wise?

With the departure of Sam Cane, I believe the loose trio could sort itself out, by playing Savea at 7 and Sititi at 8. But who's going to get his hands on the 6 jersey? Is Finau the answer or should they try finding an enforcer in the mold of Kaino, if any?

The scrum half position is well covered for the future, but what about 10? Is Mo'unga the answer when he gets back from Japan, or should Razor start blooding other (younger) players in?

The midfield still looks like it hasn't been sorted out since Nonu and Smith retired, so what combo would do best? Should Ioane stay at centre or move to the wing? Is Jordie good enough to start at 12?

The outside backs, in the Clarke/Jordan/Te'lea formula, look menacing enough, but could there be other options as well?

Would love to hear what the Kiwis say about all this .

Razor has been a disappointment for most kiwis i talk to, he got the gig on the back of innovating because we'd had the better part of 20 years of evolving (henry, hansen, foster each the assistant to the one before)...and its looks very similar to what fozzie would have done

barret has never struck me as a captain and i feel hes one of these guys that plays on instinct rather than brains....so so asking him to think is going to diminish his game

rumour has it savea has a clause in his contract about 8 being his favours position, only covering 7....so doubt we'll ever see him at 7 permanently

the idea RM coming back is seen as the solution worries the hell out of me....he wasn't world class when he left....and now hes older and been playing in completely different systems...like other selections its just stopping us truely developing the next generation

personally i think jordie and ioane have stagnated....they dont gel with each other, we make almost no midfield breaks and if we do the other one seems surprised and it dies quickly

 

[Kiwiwomble]

up until the 90's i think it was only done away from home, because its not just a warcry as much as people like to simplify it to that, its a challenge to the other team "come on, this is going to be an epic clash"....but its also supposed to be an honour to receive, it was a thank you to the hosting team and their supporters. Thats why we do them a funerals (we're not threatening the deceased) or when someone we know receives an award or something, its supposed to be a celebration

watch this, its a honour to recieve

further to this....people dont have to like it...but its like when you go to someones house and they make you a meal that you dont like....the fact you dont like it is more about your preference or taste...the intent was a positive gesture by the host

 

[Kiwiwomble]

my final though on the haka, and i might alone, if people are worried about the time it takes...i would be happy to skip our nation anthem...just because i honestly think ,ore people i know would chant alone with the Haka...God save New Zealand isn;t a hugely passionate anthem like some around the world are

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Pretty messy game for the ABs, but somehow understandable, as being the last of a grueling long year.

Overall, a mixed first year for Razor, whose mindset favored a more conservative approach in selection, probably due to the fear of not losing too many games on a very tough, opponent wise, calendar.

The first row unit has now a great depth, but what about the second row? Is Scott Barrett the answer as NZ's captain? Is him or Va'ai the undisputed starters or Razor should try bringing in more imposing players, weight and height wise?

With the departure of Sam Cane, I believe the loose trio could sort itself out, by playing Savea at 7 and Sititi at 8. But who's going to get his hands on the 6 jersey? Is Finau the answer or should they try finding an enforcer in the mold of Kaino, if any?

The scrum half position is well covered for the future, but what about 10? Is Mo'unga the answer when he gets back from Japan, or should Razor start blooding other (younger) players in?

The midfield still looks like it hasn't been sorted out since Nonu and Smith retired, so what combo would do best? Should Ioane stay at centre or move to the wing? Is Jordie good enough to start at 12?

The outside backs, in the Clarke/Jordan/Te'lea formula, look menacing enough, but could there be other options as well?

Would love to hear what the Kiwis say about all this .

my caveat to any criticism-is that I've enjoyed watching the All Blacks play, so overall I am happy-
first I should state my preferences for what games are more important than others. All games matter. World cup pool games matter the least because we will reach the quarterfinals anyway and the pool games sole purpose is to get to the quarterfinals. World cup quarterfinals are about twice as important as games against top 8 opposition outside the world cup. I am not one of these people that is happy to lose every game outside the world Cup if we win the world cup. Why limit my chance of enjoyment to once every 4 years. But nor does that mean I believe we should play our best team every game. Some player development is required to give a long-term high win ratio.

To me Razor has passed, no better or worse than a pass mark. He has done almost as well as what I would have expected from the previous coaching group. But he is new.

We won only one out of four of our hard games-games against opposition that were of similar quality to us last year. The one we won we benefitted from Ireland playing their first game of the year and having deteriorated since last year and playIng the worst game I have seen them play in a really long time. And the french had tummy bugs yet we still lost. And the books rotated players and were developing their playing style rather than focusing on beating us, but we still lost. We won three out of three against England, but so we should have_ They have improved but are far less experienced than us and frankly not that great . We lost to Argentina, at home. Not good enough.
There have been some positive signs, suggestions that things Could improve in the future, so I'm happy to wait and see.
He has done very little purposeful player development. Apart from the Fiji and Japan games he has basically only made injury enforced changes and a few decisions based on form.
Perhaps year one was never going to be development year. I will wait before passing judgement. It's not like we have a whole host of obviously better players to choose. Some players need to prove themselves at super rugby first. Holl and will come into the frame immediately. Suafoa will push his case if he gets move game time now he has recovered from cancer. Tupaea might hit some form. Higgins will get a chance to prove himself with Jordie out this year. Love will get a chance to iron out his game. Perhaps lakai will get more opportunities now he has been given game time through injuries. Hotham can further develop. Hannah can further develop.
There's not anything more that can be asked of Proctor at this stage. It will just take some decision by the selectors that they need something extra in the midfield. Jordie and Rieko have both been very good at hard running and hard defence but they aren't offering much more and so you'd have to wonder if we need them both on the field and if they are a good combo.
Our players just aren't as good anymore. Too often they will make the wrong decisions-e.g whether to draw and pass or skip pass, offload or keep the ball. We have been slowly losing this since around 2017. Partly it is a generational thing. Prior to the pro era players focused less on coached structures and move on the basics. This carried through into the pro era and with coaches like Wayne Smith spending time with players analysing decision making. And with great players. All learning off each other and passing down what they learned. Slowly but surely this has dissipated at the same time as the rest of the world has improved. For some time we have not been winning at under 20 level and this has filtered through. No longer are our elite players more skillful than our international counterparts. And we've been exporting our coaching IP for a long time.
I dont know if Razor is the right coach to innovate. On the one hand has Crusaders played boring set-piece based rugby and relied on occasional brilliance from Mounga or Jorden. On the other hand, I have at least been impressed that the All Blacks have not been playing exactly like the Crusaders. In particular we pick and go around the rucks a lot more, something that the last coaching group developed and the Blues as well as teams like La Rochelle have had a lot of success with is recent times.

 

[Yulia]

my final though on the haka, and i might alone, if people are worried about the time it takes...i would be happy to skip our nation anthem...just because i honestly think ,ore people i know would chant alone with the Haka...God save New Zealand isn;t a hugely passionate anthem like some around the world are

Haka doesn't take a long of time though. If someone doesn't like it - his/her problem. Noone obliges to watch it, you can always switch the channel/skip it/turn you tv off during it. There are also enough of people who like it (like me for example)

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Haka doesn't take a long of time though. If someone doesn't like it - his/her problem. Noone obliges to watch it, you can always switch the channel/skip it/turn you tv off during it. There are also enough of people who like it (like me for example)

the point was im not sure there are loads of kiwis that are super passionate about the national anthem before a sporting game...remembrance services and the like, sure

 

[miccloarch]

Pretty messy game for the ABs, but somehow understandable, as being the last of a grueling long year.

Overall, a mixed first year for Razor, whose mindset favored a more conservative approach in selection, probably due to the fear of not losing too many games on a very tough, opponent wise, calendar.

The first row unit has now a great depth, but what about the second row? Is Scott Barrett the answer as NZ's captain? Is him or Va'ai the undisputed starters or Razor should try bringing in more imposing players, weight and height wise?

With the departure of Sam Cane, I believe the loose trio could sort itself out, by playing Savea at 7 and Sititi at 8. But who's going to get his hands on the 6 jersey? Is Finau the answer or should they try finding an enforcer in the mold of Kaino, if any?

The scrum half position is well covered for the future, but what about 10? Is Mo'unga the answer when he gets back from Japan, or should Razor start blooding other (younger) players in?

The midfield still looks like it hasn't been sorted out since Nonu and Smith retired, so what combo would do best? Should Ioane stay at centre or move to the wing? Is Jordie good enough to start at 12?

The outside backs, in the Clarke/Jordan/Te'lea formula, look menacing enough, but could there be other options as well?

Would love to hear what the Kiwis say about all this .

Taller locks will help, that's why Lord, Holland and Darry are being considered as depth. Scooter and Vaa'i have been doing great though after a rocky start to the year.

Lakai will presumably be part of the loosies. He was brilliant against France. Finau is looking average at test level.

Rieko is not a wing anymore imo. Much of the criticism he's faced has been over the top but it's not like he's been outstanding either. Proctor was hard done by this year. Nonu and Smith will never be replaced like for like, don't hold your breath on that one.

Clarke and Tele'a are two of the first names on the team sheet right now but of course we need depth. Sevu Reece has mostly been a disaster. Will Jordan is a freak but he has limitations at 15 and needs to develop his defensive game and his kicking game.

There's a whole SR season to come though. Hopefully form players will be given more chances in 2025.

 

[miccloarch]

we'd had the better part of 20 years of evolving (henry, hansen, foster each the assistant to the one before)...and its looks very similar to what fozzie would have done

Fozzie's tactics were a poor imitation of Hansen's. Schmidt and Ryan ran the show tactically from the '22 Ellis Park test onward. If Razor were copying anyone it would be Schmidt but he's not. It's Crusaders ball with All Black characteristics.

At first the players weren't executing because they were confused but they've been tracking well lately. The France game was enough evidence of that despite the loss. They still made some errors but at least they were in a positive mindset playing attacking ball-in-hand rugby while making them. The poor show against Italy was due mostly to fatigue but give the Italians some credit too.

 

[miccloarch]

I dont know if Razor is the right coach to innovate. On the one hand has Crusaders played boring set-piece based rugby and relied on occasional brilliance from Mounga or Jorden. On the other hand, I have at least been impressed that the All Blacks have not been playing exactly like the Crusaders. In particular we pick and go around the rucks a lot more, something that the last coaching group developed and the Blues as well as teams like La Rochelle have had a lot of success with is recent times.

Razor's tactical innovations are geared towards winning rugby matches, not necessarily scoring the most aesthetically pleasing tries. It's not like the Crusaders were boring to watch though, there were just other more exciting teams that won absolutely zero trophies during his reign.

Our players have natural flair anyway. I'm not too concerned about how many great tries we score if we win the big prize at the end of the cycle. And to do that you need to be able to play and win in different ways under intense pressure.

If he instills one style of play, that's just one more for the locker. Some people also tend view the gameplan as linear, thinking you develop it over four years and then that's how you play at the World Cup. Nope. Dumb. That's you how get caught out. Check 2019, 2003 and 1995 for key examples.