Irish accused of aiding All Black defections

[Logorrhea]

 

[Shaggy]

In the same way that schools are compensated for every employee they "develop"?

I'm neither saying it is correct or incorrect, I was pointing out the lack of context in one response.


I wasnt. I was calling it wishy washy shite to point out that there is no $$$ value to it. Dont get defensive and nationalistic about a plank of wood and it wont turn into an arguement.

I think New Zealand are in god awful trouble. I dont believe its right. I fully understand the frustration but the answer is not in restricting trade (which is illegal), but in increasing the revenues available to pay the New Zealand players and keep them at home (where the majority of them should be). Thats why I belive the other poster was correct.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of any product that is manufactured or crafted in one country, and imported in another, the costs of producing the product is incorporated in the selling price, and generally, the producer makes a profit on the item, but yes, if you want to equate it to the educational system, then perhaps tertiary education, where the universities get paid up front the student who invests the time and expects to get recompensed for that and their student debt from employers when they enter the work force.

I know that you weren't advocating one way or the other by the way, and that you were clarifying capitalism in general.

... I agree that restricting trade is the answer either, but I do think that maybe a transfer fee should be included though

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm not begrudging the financial compensations issue just simply saying Ireland got singled out. From my knowledge we have Issac Boss as our only New Zealander in Irish pool of players off top of head. May be wrong so I don't see how we are singled. As for IRFU giving provinces money, it's because they own us but we generate alot of mOney independently and pay for our own academies of money raised through supporter clubs etc.
I know what it's like to work in a rugby coaching team and realize lack of money is lack of jobs etc but I think it petit of NZRU as well as ignorant to come out with that crap.
New Zealanders love wearing the black jersey and when they have it money isn't an issue. The players who come here are either told they have no hope of decent future in New Zealand (Mafi was told) or they are over the hill and surplus to requirement (Howlett was told) so like they can't have it every way and pick and choose rules as they go on

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Lol, this really shows your views are kind of extremist in this, so kind of backfires. Does your argument more harm than good, so well done.

Are Fifa also communists? Everyone's a communist, because we live with our families for some of our life and families sometimes pool resources. We all support our nations and clubs instead of the richest, best players in the world only, so we're all communists!

Communism has become your flogged to death horse. :lol:

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

I'm not begrudging the financial compensations issue just simply saying Ireland got singled out. From my knowledge we have Issac Boss as our only New Zealander in Irish pool of players off top of head. May be wrong so I don't see how we are singled. As for IRFU giving provinces money, it's because they own us but we generate alot of mOney independently and pay for our own academies of money raised through supporter clubs etc.
I know what it's like to work in a rugby coaching team and realize lack of money is lack of jobs etc but I think it petit of NZRU as well as ignorant to come out with that crap.
New Zealanders love wearing the black jersey and when they have it money isn't an issue. The players who come here are either told they have no hope of decent future in New Zealand (Mafi was told) or they are over the hill and surplus to requirement (Howlett was told) so like they can't have it every way and pick and choose rules as they go on

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Hey if that's all your saying then fair enough. Ireland definitely shouldn't be singled out. It's just an article and probably a beat up. The NZRFU are probably just slightly disappointed.

 

[Logorrhea]

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of any product that is manufactured or crafted in one country, and imported in another, the costs of producing the product is incorporated in the selling price, and generally, the producer makes a profit on the item

Physical goods and people are two different things but I like your approach. Lets bring back slavery. I'd probably support you on that

Football clubs have been trying to protect these same investments for years, they have a lot more interst in it, and a lot more money invested in finding a solution. Their only solution was to pay higher salaries and put their players on longer contracts. A risky proposition for such a physical game as rugby.

New Zealands problem is they are over producing. They have no legal right to be compensated for producing rugby players so appealing for money on the back of a "please", "its morally correct", and "think of the children" just doesnt work.

Iversen said there were two sides to this "arguement" but I dont think its gotten to an arguement yet, as its impossible to get past the impossibilities of one position.

 

[Shaggy]

Although should the player fail to work quins could always call NZ customer services
->

and request a full refund ....or coupons.

:lol: Sure, provided you've adhered to the "beginners guide" to using him properly

 

[profitius]

Theres many ways of looking at it. NZ train those players for the benefit of NZ rugby, not for the players benefit so why should they be entitled to money if players decide to head overseas? Also you'd have to ask at what age should they be under for compensation etc. Lots of grey areas.

There should be some way of compensation but its not going to happen. I wouldn't mind seeing a system in place to reward the development of players.

 

[munstermuffin]

If NZRU want to get money it's simply price tickets smarter and generate money wisely.
Look at Irish model seen as we are singled out.
Munster and Leinster get massive crowds and sell out most of their games (20000 plus) because of excellent pricing and advertising of games. Ulster do same but have a much smaller venue.
They market their merchandise smartly (New Zealand do too in fairness) and nearly every person in Ireland on average has at least 1 or 2 items of a province. And this is on top of IRFU gear.
Try make a day of it like when Munster had some evening games here they had local derbies in the AIL here to generate money and draw a slightly wider audience.

 

[SpanishBob]

I wonder why don't they put the blame on the french clubs. They are breaking the market, not the irish.

Anyway rugby has a serious problem right now that has to be solved. When so many players from New Zealand, Australia and South Africa are leaving to Europe (France mainly, whatever NZRU says) it means the model is not working. I hate to say that but considering how the things are going on in the last couple of years I support the policy of those countries who doesn't consider for selection players playing outside the country. I don't see any alternative measure to fight against this epidemy.

 

[Shaggy]

Physical goods and people are two different things but I like your approach. Lets bring back slavery. I'd probably support you on that

:lol: Slavery, quite a long bow you draw there ... maybe bring back colonialism and exploitation of natural resources while you are at it

Football clubs have been trying to protect these same investments for years, they have a lot more interst in it, and a lot more money invested in finding a solution. Their only solution was to pay higher salaries and put their players on longer contracts. A risky proposition for such a physical game as rugby.

Yet they still have a transfer fee ... I'm not advocating player protection, merely some financial recompense for all of the coaching, academies etc, to be filtered back in to train the next player up to the same standard.

New Zealands problem is they are over producing. They have no legal right to be compensated for producing rugby players so appealing for money on the back of a "please", "its morally correct", and "think of the children" just doesnt work.

I disagree, New Zealand's problem is not that its over producing players, it's a purely a player retention issue - if it was we wouldn't be having problems finding backups for Dan Carter etc. The high number of players being produced with Super Rugby or ITM cup experience is as a result of having to replace the high number of players moving offshore.

You are right that we currently have no legal right to compensation, but this could easily be remedied by incorporating a payout for service owing clause, as Smart Cooky suggests, or the IRB introducing transfer fees.

 

[monkeypigeon]

Transfer fees are to pay the club to release the player from their contractual duties.

There's usually know transfer fees in rugby because the clubs just wait untill the contract is expiring and then make their move. It's different.

New Zealand could consider offering longer contracts to their top players to look them in.

But like I said before, FIFA do actually have compensation schemes but they can be evaded with the players assistance.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

:lol: Slavery, quite a long bow you draw there ... maybe bring back colonialism and exploitation of natural resources while you are at it



Yet they still have a transfer fee ... I'm not advocating player protection, merely some financial recompense for all of the coaching, academies etc, to be filtered back in to train the next player up to the same standard.



I disagree, New Zealand's problem is not that its over producing players, it's a purely a player retention issue - if it was we wouldn't be having problems finding backups for Dan Carter etc. The high number of players being produced with Super Rugby or ITM cup experience is as a result of having to replace the high number of players moving offshore.

You are right that we currently have no legal right to compensation, but this could easily be remedied by incorporating a payout for service owing clause, as Smart Cooky suggests, or the IRB introducing transfer fees.

I fear that you are making a mistake I've often made, bothering to discuss something with him. You'll get good honest debate with most on here, sometimes you'll concede they have a point, sometimes others will concede you have one, but he never concedes anything. All I do is back off and just thank my lucky stars that no-one I know has an "I'm always right" philosophy in real life.

 

[LittleGuy]

My only worry with development fees being charged is it could cause harm to Canadian, American, Argentine, Uruguayan and to a lesser extent Japanese players looking to get contracts overseas. It's hard enough for our players to get one of the limited overseas spots on rosters, frequently players are told they are good enough to be in the squad but are told an inferior local player is more useful in that spot since it allows another foreign player to come in where depth is weaker.

If clubs were forced to pay our unions development fees I think they would be even less likely to give players from here a try out, I suppose we could have some sort of clause where we drop the fee but this won't sit well with unions that do want compensation for development.

 

[Shaggy]

I fear that you are making a mistake I've often made, bothering to discuss something with him. You'll get good honest debate with most on here, sometimes you'll concede they have a point, sometimes others will concede you have one, but he never concedes anything. All I do is back off and just thank my lucky stars that no-one I know has an "I'm always right" philosophy in real life.

No drama, It's not really important to me whether anyone concedes a point or not, as I doubt that anything any of us say on here is going to change the way the unions and clubs handle their players anyway, regardless of whether we are right or wrong ... interesting to read others points of view regardless

 

[FlukeArtist]

NZ complaints about their top players going to Europe, rings rather hollow considering their systemic 'cherrypicking' of top Pacific Islands players for 20 years now... Plus its a free market, Get over it!!!!!!!

Spoken like a true idiot who has no idea about the country he is talking about.

Wake up to yourself champ.

 

[durbutter]

People rarely miss an opportunity to have a go at NZ don't they?

 

[FlukeArtist]

@ Durbutter

Mate, I couldn't give a 4uck about people having a go at NZ- thats what happens when you're at the top of your game, people always are gunning for you.

Its ignorant, racist, 4uckwits like jonathanklly that I can't stomach.

These guys see a player that isn't white and automatically assume he can't be a "real NZer" or that NZ have "stolen" him from the islands.
The reality is, if the guy had any 4ucking clue, he would realise that Auckland has more polynesian people than any other city in the world. And i'm including Samoa, Fiji and Tonga when I say that.

Sick to death of hearing this same old racist BS from pig-ignorant a55holes like him.

 

[munstermuffin]

In fairness FlukeArtist if it was meant in same way I meant it earlier it not racism just saying players that are All Blacks were born in other countries.
I don't know first thing about who lives in Auckland or any other major places in New Zealand.

What annoys me more though is this comes down to money and fact Ireland who probably have least amount of All Blacks out of all major countries here.
I've had the luck to travel to New Zealand and will call it straight, for players that are much better skilled and can produce more entertaining, magical and exciting moments as well as games I ask why does stadiums or games lack atmosphere at times. And well a big part is at times the stadiums are half empty when it comes to club games. And reson is prices. The NZRU have to revise their pricing plans and try generate income at a greater level.

 

[FlukeArtist]

@ Munstermuffin:
In fairness FlukeArtist if it was meant in same way I meant it earlier it not racism just saying players that are All Blacks were born in other countries.
I don't know first thing about who lives in Auckland or any other major places in New Zealand.

OK then MunsterMuffin- you name me these players that the ABs have "stolen" then.
Was Andrew Mehrtens stolen by the ABs? he was born in SA, but you never hear a word about that. You know why? cos he is white.