Irish accused of aiding All Black defections

[dangandan]

it's probably because both unions discussed it in June so the NZRU are a little hurt or betrayed by it hah, whereas they don't seem to have talked with the French, English, Welsh etc. it's still a little odd considering the calibre of NZ players aren't that high in Ireland. it could also be that the IRFU agreed with the NZRU that the high salaries being dished out weren't right and then they went ahead and did something similar. but if what Munstermuffin said about the salaries is true then again it's pretty strange...

 

[Peat]

The reason they can point at the IRFU and none of the others is that the IRFU actually helps with the money for overseas signings which no other union does if I recall correctly.

 

[DorceOutSide]

next to follow suite dan carter to leinster ?

 

[nickdnz]

Meh. I don't think the NZRU should complain. New Zealand will never be able to offer the financial security that clubs in the NH can. That's a fact. I'm a big Cory Jane fan, but if he no longer feels the pull of the All Blacks is enough to keep him in New Zealand after a RWC, I can understand thay, especially with a child on the way. It's more depressing to me losing John Afoa, as he is starting to show some class, and props only get better with age, which leaving so young in propping terms, I think the NZRU have been in some ways have a right to be annoyed, as NZ will never get to see the best of him.

With that in mind, there are loads of players who leave Samoa, Tonga and Fiji to play in New Zealand, and a part of that is because rugby is a professional game here. Most All Blacks from those countries, have lived here longer than they've played rugby, but there are quite a lot in the NPC and lower devisions that haven't. It's just part of a game being professional, and oppertunities to provide for yourself and your family often will outweigh your own ambitions.

An arguement that the signings won't really hurt the All Blacks is a little silly however. munstermuffin has said the new signings won't hurt the All Blacks, but they will. Other than the fact, that Afoa and Jane are high quality players, who have taken many years to become as good as they are, it is irrelevant if they are All Black starters or not. It all comes down to depth. The Hurricanes are performing poorly at the moment, but would they be performing as poorly with Jerry Collins, Chris Masoe, Jimmy Gopperth, Paul ***io, Michael Paterson, Liefimi Mafi as back up? Succcess of a country comes down to depth, and having a strong and experienced player pool always helps a national squad, and it is a key difference between New Zealand's back up's, and Ireland's and Wales, where one injury to a player means the backup is usually of a much lower quality.

 

[monkeypigeon]

I don't want to make a joke out of a serious issue. But nobody should ever want Paul ***o in their squad. I don't think I've ever been impressed by him.

And you didn't see us complaining when David Gannon was over with Southland in 2009 for the Air New Zealand Cup. I hear he was being paid the equivalent of €7million for that one season.


But the issue with Ireland does seem to be that the IRFU were gobbing off about the Frenchies and then they assist with the bringing of Players to Ireland and high wages (probably exaggerated amounts in the media, but still high) .

 

[munstermuffin]

The reason they can point at the IRFU and none of the others is that the IRFU actually helps with the money for overseas signings which no other union does if I recall correctly.

But IRFU fund our clubs unlike others. That should be no reason for singling out IRFU

 

[Logorrhea]

The Scottish.

What about the Leslie brothers and the "kilted Kiwis"?

Either way, there was an article from stuff.co.nz where Pat Lam pointed out the on average S15 teams pay about €100,000 per year. They cant compete with the salaries even on offer in Ireland.

Unrealistic to expect the rest of the world to sit there and leave them alone. Especially as they always beat us, and Paddy O'Brien is their fault.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

What about the Leslie brothers and the "kilted Kiwis"?

Of course I was referring to the clubs today, should have been clearer.

 

[gingergenius]

can't be anything more than about the IRFU going back on some agreement they made with the NZRFU. Much as being an Irish province puts you at a huge advantage when it comes to churning out top-class HC teams, it's mainly Irish talent that gets them there. As has already been said, Howlett's the only classy New Zealander in Ireland at the moment - the likes of Tuitupou and Mafi you can find ten a penny of in New Zealand, they're hardly going to be missed, and nobody's going to turn up at a club game in NZ specifically to watch them play (besides maybe their girlfriend..)

I look at the All Blacks and I see heaps of players, especially backs, who'd walk into NH international sides and can't even get into the AB touring party. The coaching setup and rugby culture you have down there means you'll never be lacking in depth at international level. Nick Evans and Glen Jackson are arguably the best 10s to play premiership rugby in the past decade, and neither of them have been missed by the All Blacks.

At Super Rugby level? Tough ****. I agree that sides like the Hurricanes would benefit from having the likes of Collins still around, but if they can't succeed when they've got Weepu, Nonu, Gear, Smith, Jane etc etc. then it's them to blame, not Europe.

 

[nickdnz]

can't be anything more than about the IRFU going back on some agreement they made with the NZRFU. Much as being an Irish province puts you at a huge advantage when it comes to churning out top-class HC teams, it's mainly Irish talent that gets them there. As has already been said, Howlett's the only classy New Zealander in Ireland at the moment - the likes of Tuitupou and Mafi you can find ten a penny of in New Zealand, they're hardly going to be missed, and nobody's going to turn up at a club game in NZ specifically to watch them play (besides maybe their girlfriend..)

I look at the All Blacks and I see heaps of players, especially backs, who'd walk into NH international sides and can't even get into the AB touring party. The coaching setup and rugby culture you have down there means you'll never be lacking in depth at international level. Nick Evans and Glen Jackson are arguably the best 10s to play premiership rugby in the past decade, and neither of them have been missed by the All Blacks.

At Super Rugby level? Tough ****. I agree that sides like the Hurricanes would benefit from having the likes of Collins still around, but if they can't succeed when they've got Weepu, Nonu, Gear, Smith, Jane etc etc. then it's them to blame, not Europe.

Nick Evans not being missed by the All Blacks? If there is one player in the world that the All Blacks could use, it would be Nick Evans. Fair points in general though, although the Canes problem comes from not having the forwards to dominate, not the backs.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't believe the issue is with Irish Provinces per se poaching NZ talent, its that they are doing so with the financial assistance of the IRFU; that is the bone of contention. Apart from John Afoa, it looks suspiciousy like the IRFU buying players to become future Irish Internationals. As soon as Jared Payne was mentioned, some Irish media already had him the the Ireland squad, and he's still playing here in NZ!!

However, I think FlukeArtist is right. As long ago as 2000 the doomsayers were predicting that the European Clubs would gut NZ of talent and that we would begin a steady slide down the rankings as all the talent ends up in Europe. The British Media made jokes about the last player leaving NZ to turn off the lights. Well the joke is on them, because it hasn't happened, and shows no sign of doing so. New Zealand could field a "second 22" side that could beat any International team in Europe except England and France, who they would likely be the equal of.

However, it is about time that the NZRU took steps to protect their investment. They must be heartily sick of paying to develop these players only to be out-priced by EuroCash.

I would like to see them adopt a similar system, that the military do here, a "return of service" for the money invested. When the military send a member on a course of training, the member must sign a contract guaranteeing they they will not apply for a discharge for a period of time after they return. For example, when I was posted to Moffat Naval Air Station in California in 1985 for a maintenance course on the (then) new Orion Doppler Radar, I had to contract for three years on my return, so that the Air Force got a return on their investment. If I wanted out before that time, I would have to buy out of my contract.

Similarly, I think NZ rugby players should be signing a minimum four year contract before they are even allowed to set foot on the field in an ITM Cup. At this point, they begin to accrue a "dollar value" commensurate with the amount of money the NZRU spend on their development. If they get selected for Super Rugby, they sign another minimum four year contract (which encompasses the ITM Cup contract) and their dollar value goes up accordingly. Get selected for the All Blacks, another four year contract (encompassing the previous two) and a further increase in their value.

If at any time, a player decides they want to play in Europe or another country, they must buy out of their contract, or have their new club buy them out. For example, a player like Jared Payne might have an accumulated value to the NZRU of $350K plus whatever time he had to run on his contract, say another three years at $100K p.a.

Ulster might balk at having to pay a transfer fee to the NZRU of $650K on top of whatever they offer him, but if they decide he is worth it, the NZRU at least gets $650K to help pay for the next cab off the rank.

 

[lifeanddeath]

Really it's New Zealand's problem if their economy will not support their players. It's not the fault fo the irish if they want talent which in capitalist terms is effectively underpaid and undervalued in another country.

Nick Evans is a good example. Great player, but had to play understudy to Dan Carter, and not paid much in NZ. Why should he stick around when he's got no guarentee of international rugby and doesn't get much money. Pretty much every other major rugby country has made it viable to play in that country for reasons other than that nationalities shirt - NZ need to evolve and do the same.

 

[profitius]

The IRFU want Irish teams to cut the number of non Irish qualified players playing for them. They want as many Irish players playing weekly as possible and theres talk of them cutting the amount of NIQ players after next season.

They are however starting this project player nonsense. The IRB need to change the rules so that players need to live in a country for 6 years before they qualify for a foreign country.

From a NZ perspective at least players leaving allows younger players the chance to play and that strengthens the national team. On the negative side of things it'll have a bad effect on the national team if first team squad players start to leave.

The French are the main force in driving up prices globally. Top players from all countries are now being signed up and the Welsh are the latest to feel the effect. Its only the Irish who are resisting the pulling power of the French euro but for how long? Sexton for example already turned down more French money to stay in Ireland and Stade Francis offered big bucks to Heaslip too a few months back.

 

[nickdnz]

Really it's New Zealand's problem if their economy will not support their players. It's not the fault fo the irish if they want talent which in capitalist terms is effectively underpaid and undervalued in another country.

Nick Evans is a good example. Great player, but had to play understudy to Dan Carter, and not paid much in NZ. Why should he stick around when he's got no guarentee of international rugby and doesn't get much money. Pretty much every other major rugby country has made it viable to play in that country for reasons other than that nationalities shirt - NZ need to evolve and do the same.

Ignorent post. New Zealand can only afford to pay a certain amount to players, and that amount is still more than the average wage in New Zealand. Nick Evans would probably earn more than $100,000 a year, which is more than many doctors and university lecturers get, so to say he was not paid much is fairly stupid. He got paid a reasonable amount, and an amount that the NZRU could afford to pay him, and keep the domestic game so much greater than any other country that will fork out millions.
While I realize that a professional sports star has only a relatively short career span, the money that some players get paid is silly money (SBW's ffs), and where would that money come from? There isn't many multi billion dollar companies in New Zealand that are willing to pay player wages.

To say he is undervalued is also stupid, as he was a starting player for the Highlanders and was on the bench for the All Blacks (something which thousands of people in New Zealand would dream of). I can understand why players would leave in order to make money for their families and futures, but don't try and devalue what players get in New Zealand, which is to compete in the highest level of rugby and for one of the most prestigious team in the world.

 

[durbutter]

I don't believe the issue is with Irish Provinces per se poaching NZ talent, its that they are doing so with the financial assistance of the IRFU

Thats how our system is set up, every club in the country is financed by the IRFU in one manner or another, not to mind the provinces.

it looks suspiciousy like the IRFU buying players to become future Irish Internationals. As soon as Jared Payne was mentioned, some Irish media already had him the the Ireland squad, and he's still playing here in NZ!!

If they are then they've picked a horrendous amount of Lemons already. I would see what you cite as the provinces trying to get around the 5 player NIQ limit imposed on them by the IRFU.

The only "project player" currently playing who would be an addition to the Ireland setup is Strauss.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

People go on about the NH stealing away players with their big money, but Matt Giteau is the 2nd highest paid rugby player in ze world according to this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...t-paid-player-Racing-Metro-offer-4m-deal.html

£900,000 a year from the force, with only Chabal (£1m) ahead (and the money that Racing Metro offered Carter topping the list)

 

[nickdnz]

Australia pays some of their players stupid money. Look at what the Rebels have apparently offered Beale. There seems to be a very large player gap between the top players and the bottom ones, but I guess Australia have to compete harder than any other country to keep their star players, as they have to fight with the very rich NRL teams to keep them.

 

[Shaggy]

Really it's New Zealand's problem if their economy will not support their players. It's not the fault fo the irish if they want talent which in capitalist terms is effectively underpaid and undervalued in another country.

Nick Evans is a good example. Great player, but had to play understudy to Dan Carter, and not paid much in NZ. Why should he stick around when he's got no guarentee of international rugby and doesn't get much money. Pretty much every other major rugby country has made it viable to play in that country for reasons other than that nationalities shirt - NZ need to evolve and do the same.

... Why?, New Zealand doesn't have the population or the economic clout to compete with the kind of money that the likes of France can pay ... that being the case, you're going to use whatever means you can to retain as many of the natural resources you've developed (the players) by whatever other means you can, such as, if you play overseas, you can't play for the All Blacks.

... It's interesting that Ireland, Wales, England, South Africa etc, all retain a preference to picking players for their national sides,that play within their own borders, with England going as far as to warn their players that are wanting to play in France, that it will lessen their chances of being picked - it's not exactly competing purely by capitalism is it? ... in fact its sounding like a watered down version of what New Zealand is doing.

If we going the paying the player what they are worth/tough luck if you can't afford to retain them route, I'm liking Cooky's transfer fee idea more and more ... If a country is supplying an overseas club with a "finished product" that they have put time and money into creating, I don't see anything wrong with getting paid for it. Who knows, it may even pump much needed cash into the cash strapped Pacific Island unions

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

I don't believe the issue is with Irish Provinces per se poaching NZ talent, its that they are doing so with the financial assistance of the IRFU; that is the bone of contention. Apart from John Afoa, it looks suspiciousy like the IRFU buying players to become future Irish Internationals. As soon as Jared Payne was mentioned, some Irish media already had him the the Ireland squad, and he's still playing here in NZ!!

However, I think FlukeArtist is right. As long ago as 2000 the doomsayers were predicting that the European Clubs would gut NZ of talent and that we would begin a steady slide down the rankings as all the talent ends up in Europe. The British Media made jokes about the last player leaving NZ to turn off the lights. Well the joke is on them, because it hasn't happened, and shows no sign of doing so. New Zealand could field a "second 22" side that could beat any International team in Europe except England and France, who they would likely be the equal of.

However, it is about time that the NZRU took steps to protect their investment. They must be heartily sick of paying to develop these players only to be out-priced by EuroCash.

I would like to see them adopt a similar system, that the military do here, a "return of service" for the money invested. When the military send a member on a course of training, the member must sign a contract guaranteeing they they will not apply for a discharge for a period of time after they return. For example, when I was posted to Moffat Naval Air Station in California in 1985 for a maintenance course on the (then) new Orion Doppler Radar, I had to contract for three years on my return, so that the Air Force got a return on their investment. If I wanted out before that time, I would have to buy out of my contract.

Similarly, I think NZ rugby players should be signing a minimum four year contract before they are even allowed to set foot on the field in an ITM Cup. At this point, they begin to accrue a "dollar value" commensurate with the amount of money the NZRU spend on their development. If they get selected for Super Rugby, they sign another minimum four year contract (which encompasses the ITM Cup contract) and their dollar value goes up accordingly. Get selected for the All Blacks, another four year contract (encompassing the previous two) and a further increase in their value.

If at any time, a player decides they want to play in Europe or another country, they must buy out of their contract, or have their new club buy them out. For example, a player like Jared Payne might have an accumulated value to the NZRU of $350K plus whatever time he had to run on his contract, say another three years at $100K p.a.

Ulster might balk at having to pay a transfer fee to the NZRU of $650K on top of whatever they offer him, but if they decide he is worth it, the NZRU at least gets $650K to help pay for the next cab off the rank.

Initiating a transfer fee system based on player development costs and the appreciating value associated with the players concerned is something I've spoken about many times. I've been saying it for the last couple of years. Surely New Zealand can do it legally as it all stands to reason. I've often wondered why this avenue has not been pursued. Smart Cooky's post is the only other time I've heard a New Zealander mention it and that's on forums, on the radio, television and just in public in general.

As you've said, having to pay a large fee similar to a transfer fee to the NZRFU would scare off many poachers and it'd be fair too. Personally I'm starting to think that the IRB may have some regulation against it. If so, if I was in charge of the NZRFU, I'd dig my toes in and do it anyway.

Along with solving a few other problems it'd also solve the problem of players getting signed for big money to the NH only to have fans up there say that "they weren't that good anyway". If they weren't paying over the odds for them, they'd get far better value and have less of them to complain about.

 

[Logorrhea]

Ignorent post.

to say he was not paid much is fairly stupid.

To say he is undervalued is also stupid

Some response that.

According to the market that Evans works in, New Zealand didnt pay him very much at all. The value they put on his services was significantly less then Quins did. Capitalism doesnt put a value on wishy washy shite like the privilage of sitting on the AB bench.

Lifeanddeath was spot on with his analysis. Just because you dont like it, doesnt make it ignorant, stupid or incorrect.