Irish accused of aiding All Black defections

[TRF C A Iversen]

Some response that.

According to the market that Evans works in, New Zealand didnt pay him very much at all. The value they put on his services was significantly less then Quins did. Capitalism doesnt put a value on wishy washy shite like the privilage of sitting on the AB bench.

Lifeanddeath was spot on with his analysis. Just because you dont like it, doesnt make it ignorant, stupid or incorrect.

Don't call sitting on the All Blacks bench "wishy washy shite" to support your argument. Otherwise the debate in this thread will go downhill via people insulting the Irish national side as things like "long since flushed wishy washy shite", someone will take offence and then it becomes mud slinging as opposed to spirited debate.

To Nick, please use better adjectives than stupid and ignorant to debate someones opinion yourself please.

 

[Shaggy]

Some response that.

According to the market that Evans works in, New Zealand didnt pay him very much at all. The value they put on his services was significantly less then Quins did. Capitalism doesnt put a value on wishy washy shite like the privilage of sitting on the AB bench.

Lifeanddeath was spot on with his analysis. Just because you dont like it, doesnt make it ignorant, stupid or incorrect.

Sure, lets make it true Capitalism then, and let the likes of Quins have to pay for the cost of production of the player as well

 

[lucky number 7]

Sure, lets make it true Capitalism then, and let the likes of Quins have to pay for the cost of production of the player as well

Throw in taxation , shipping and a nice little profit for NZ too

 

[Shaggy]

Throw in taxation , shipping and a nice little profit for NZ too

:lol: Yeah, there's nothing wrong with making a profit it a Capitalist market, and tax?, sure, the government always wants it's cut

 

[munstermuffin]

Sure aren't they all like Polish here they get paid and send the money straight home so New Zealand economy benefitting.
If ye want Borlaise back we can arrange a deal

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Throw in taxation , shipping and a nice little profit for NZ too

I think most New Zealanders have no problem with our players going to play in the Northern Hemisphere. The problem we have is that our players have money pumped into them and their development from the first age they show promise. Given the losses that the NZRFU have been posting over the last few years (tens of millions of dollars), it's a one-way system that benefits the player almost exclusively.

Opportunities are given that are never paid back, and given that the NZRFU has output what amounts to financial resources on a large scale, it should be paid for it. Surely it'd be the fair and equitable thing to have happen?

 

[monkeypigeon]

http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4529&Itemid=318

That's the FIFA System...it's based on training costs.

However, there's nothing to stop the player once his contract has expired officially leaving the club, becoming a free agent and then moving without the need for compensation to the previous club.

 

[lucky number 7]

Although should the player fail to work quins could always call NZ customer services
->

and request a full refund ....or coupons.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Whatever would work fairest should really come into play. After all, if New Zealand "poaches" any developed talent at all from the islands then their unions should be compensated too. All around the world it'd work for everyone a lot better. It'd protect all the UK from France a lot more for example.

After all, would we really want rugby to come down largely to the nations with the biggest bank balance economically winning? Y'know not actually play the rugby, instead hand over a cheque and get given the ***le, shield or cup?

 

[lucky number 7]

what exactly is meant by having money pumped into them ? most provincial youth players in Ireland only get a kitbag and a jersey if they are lucky :/
Is it in the sense of getting young guys over for schooling from the Islands or in the sense of getting younger guys gym memberships or something ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I presume the time/money that goes into coaching them/paying the coaches
But then you could argue what about the kids that don't make it as a pro rugby player, should they have to repay the money that was paid to their coaches as they aren't showing a return on the investment into their rugby playing?

 

[Logorrhea]

Sure, lets make it true Capitalism then, and let the likes of Quins have to pay for the cost of production of the player as well

In the same way that schools are compensated for every employee they "develop"?

I'm neither saying it is correct or incorrect, I was pointing out the lack of context in one response.

Don't call sitting on the All Blacks bench "wishy washy shite" to support your argument.

I wasnt. I was calling it wishy washy shite to point out that there is no $$$ value to it. Dont get defensive and nationalistic about a plank of wood and it wont turn into an arguement.

I think New Zealand are in god awful trouble. I dont believe its right. I fully understand the frustration but the answer is not in restricting trade (which is illegal), but in increasing the revenues available to pay the New Zealand players and keep them at home (where the majority of them should be). Thats why I belive the other poster was correct.

 

[monkeypigeon]

what exactly is meant by having money pumped into them ? most provincial youth players in Ireland only get a kitbag and a jersey if they are lucky :/
Is it in the sense of getting young guys over for schooling from the Islands or in the sense of getting younger guys gym memberships or something ?

Yeah...I think those academy's that they run tend to cost money...

 

[munstermuffin]

New Zealand slate Ireland yet they raid Fiji, Samoa, Tonga and those places. This is a professional game now and well that is how things occur

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

what exactly is meant by having money pumped into them ? most provincial youth players in Ireland only get a kitbag and a jersey if they are lucky :/
Is it in the sense of getting young guys over for schooling from the Islands or in the sense of getting younger guys gym memberships or something ?

No, by the way many ignorant people do think that the New Zealand chases young players from the islands and brings them over for schooling, but I'm sure your not one of them, you just merely didn't understand. Enough families move over by themselves when their children are young that the NZRFU doesn't have to or want to do that.

As for the money that goes into players from New Zealand. The NZRFU puts money into the clubs these boys start with (in fact all clubs in New Zealand), they get all sorts of things when they start to develop as players, yes kit-bags, clothing, gym memberships and equipment. They also get funded trips and competitions against other age grade teams from throughout the country and sometimes abroad, they get specialist training that is the equal of the best in the world. They are moulded and developed by the NZRFU into the player they become and if that has no value, then what the heck are these other clubs and countries interested in?

New Zealand slate Ireland yet they raid Fiji, Samoa, Tonga and those places. This is a professional game now and well that is how things occur

That is a generalism with very little substance if any. Well, backed up with evidence, or was it?

Are we going to repeat the cycle of listing players from the islands that is almost totally and completely easily and comprehensively proven to be nearly entirely a group of New Zealanders who grew up here? Probably. We develop our talent, we don't buy it.

A weak and offensive argument from true raiders.

 

[lucky number 7]

No not to worry I know there is a huge number of Islanders living over in NZ was actually watching a documentary last night that noted the massive number of them in Auckland but I was always under the impression that there were scouts going out to the islands at the same time but not to the degree that alot of people make out

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

No not to worry I know there is a huge number of Islanders living over in NZ was actually watching a documentary last night that noted the massive number of them in Auckland but I was always under the impression that there were scouts going out to the islands at the same time but not to the degree that alot of people make out

Mate, I was just annoyed at munstermuffin. I don't really regard Ireland or even the UK as raiders or burglars of New Zealand players. I just feel it'd be best sorted with a development surcharge. Then surely no problem.

Personally I think people like munstermuffin who'd begrudge New Zealand and the islands of a chance to break free of debt and recover from their costly development losses are merely mean and spiteful. It's not like people are saying that the talent shouldn't be signed for up there.

If there's so much money up there, then the wealth should also go to those who moulded and made it. I personally feel sorry for the local players up there if they have to miss out through this kind of money-throwing short-sightedness.


Also, if there is any talent scouting at all going on, there are more than enough schools to watch in New Zealand full of Maori, Samoan, Tongan and Fijian kids to look at. There isn't the money to spare to send talent scouts out for that kind of thing. It'd have to be in exceptional circumstances.

 

[jonathanklly]

NZ complaints about their top players going to Europe, rings rather hollow considering their systemic 'cherrypicking' of top Pacific Islands players for 20 years now... Plus its a free market, Get over it!!!!!!!

 

[monkeypigeon]

NZ complaints about their top players going to Europe, rings rather hollow considering their systemic 'cherrypicking' of top Pacific Islands players for 20 years now... Plus its a free market, Get over it!!!!!!!

Oh God....see above.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

I presume the time/money that goes into coaching them/paying the coaches
But then you could argue what about the kids that don't make it as a pro rugby player, should they have to repay the money that was paid to their coaches as they aren't showing a return on the investment into their rugby playing?

Very obviously any rugby union wants as many players as possible so the can find the talent. They also need the other players as a measure of talent. Only some players turn into what they were looking for, the rest were given the investment as an opportunity. Much like child actors trying out for a role aren't all going to have to pay back money for auditioning.

I sense however that we are now having a stereotypical internet argument. People on one side and people on the other and no-one from either side is going to see the fairness or perspective of the other side. It's all about what you want and what you can get instead of what would be fair or right. The way most things seem to be now.