Highlanders 2013

[Darwin]

Any movement on the Maitland front? He would be another cracking signing.
Highlanders will have a steady back and some killer backs:
Smith, Slade, Gear, Nonu, Ellison, Popuali'i (unsure about this wing, maybe Ensor for smaller matches), Not sure about fullback either.

Backup scrumhalf will be interesting, seems like some think Tanaka will make the cut. Any opinions?

Joseph must be quite a convincing person, he has pulled in some very influential players.
What I'd give to have him cross the Indian Ocean...

I haven't heard much on Maitland recently - last I heard was that he was unlikely to be coming down to the Highlanders (and may in fact resign with the Crusaders). The Highlanders right wing position is certainly up for debate. Not sure what the status of Poki is - he was disappointing last season, and there have been a few stories that he has been de-listed. Popoali'i is great at ITM Cup level, but I really worry about his defense at Super Rugby - in our last match Ben Lam ran straight through him 2-3 times (without much of a run-up). Not sure if Ensor is quite ready to be starting yet as he is still a bit erratic, but he should be in the squad (or wider training squad) as he has some serious talent. Maitland would be ideal (if we could get him), as would Johnny McNicholl (one of my new heroes ) but I can't see the Crusaders letting him go (indeed I suspect he will be their starting right wing next season). There are plenty of other unsigned wings floating around e.g. Ben Lam, Nafi Tuitavake, Tino Nemani, Matt Proctor (don't tell Nick we are going to poach him ) etc - we just need to find one that suits our game-plan (whatever that is?).

In terms of a back-up halfback, Tanaka would be ideal. He has been superb for Otago during the ITM Cup, and his up-tempo style would really suit the Highlanders. There are some concerns about his size (if the opposition get a hand on him he gets thrown around like a child, and he can struggle in defense), but the rest of his game more than makes up for this weakness in my opinion. Southland (/Fijian) halfback Nemia Kenatale is another good option, as he has been in great form this season (and was in the Highlanders wider training squad last year).

To be fair, players from Hawkes Bay, Manawatu, and even Taranaki shouldn't feel any loyalty towards the Hurricanes and why should they? How many Hawkes Bay and Manawatu players get picked for the Hurricanes? Hardly any. They never look outside Wellington for their players really, so they have only themselves to blame for 'losing' talented guys from the other provinces. Last season is a prime example. Manawatu had a great season, beat Wellington away, beat Taranaki at home, beat Hawkes Bay in round robin (before losing to them in the final). So by any measure they were at least not the worst Hurricanes province.

How many players did we get in the Hurricanes? Zero. Cruden had been screwed around by Hammett in 2011 so signed elsewhere, Crosswell had never been given a decent shake either, no interest was shown in Fitzgerald, Fia or Tikoirotuma, Smith had been overlooked for the likes of Chris Eaton and Tyson Keats in 2011. The Hurricanes then went on to pick a host of underperformers from their NPC team. That they had an ok season is besides the point, they may well have been just as good or better had they chosen other players. The point I guess is why would Emery feel loyalty towards the Hurricanes when the other franchises give way more opportunities to our players.

Sadly that seems to be the sentiment of many from the Taranaki, Manawatu, and Hawke's Bay regions, and I can understand it completely. I have just seen Richard Lee-lo has been signed by the Canes, yet they didn't want to offer Emery (probably the most promising midfield back I have seen in years) a full contract . Like you, I can't blame many of these players for leaving!

 

[Larksea]

I hope Slade has a really good injury free run.

I still think he has the potential to be up there with the best 10's behind/alongside carter, still young - only just turned 25. And the fact he can play wing, 2nd five or fullback does give him a bit of utility edge over Cruden & Barrett.

 

[bobbilycious]

For once, I disagree with you, Darwin. I don't think that Highlanders' signings are anything remotely like the Chiefs'. The way I see it, the Chiefs used a Moneyball-style approach and signed up players that they could get with little money. These included an unwanted, but talented player (Robbie Robinson), talented players that hadn't yet shown their full ability at ITM Cup level (Declan O'Donnell, Maritino Nemani), and players that had performed at ITM Cup level but, for various reasons, other franchises weren't exactly jumping to get at (Andrew Horrell, Michael Fitzgerald, Shane Cleaver, Asaeli Tikoirotuma, Alex Bradley, Josh Hohneck). These were bolstered by two young but very talented players (Ben Tameifuna, Brodie Retallick) and two high profile signings (Sonny Bill Williams, Aaron Cruden). Now Mahoni Schwalger was also signed but I wouldn't exactly put him up there with the likes of Cruden. He wasn't starting on a regular basis for the Highlanders (and the player in front of him was playing very well, but it isn't like he was the best in the world). Most of these guys would have been seen as average signings, and like I said, there are two or three good ones there.

In the same period, the Highlanders signed up a very good first-five (he wasn't starting for the Crusaders, but he had represented the All Blacks), Hosea Gear and Andrew Hore. Now these have been followed by Tony Woodcock, and Ma'a Nonu. To add some balance, you also signed up some young and promising players (Ma'afu Fia, Elliot Dixon, Aaron Smith, Lima Sopoaga, Shaun Treeby, Telusa Veainu, Kurt Baker), some players who struggled for game time in other franchises (Callum Retallick, Jarrad Hoeata, Nick Crosswell, Kade Poki), some guys largely overlooked by other franchises (Doug Tietjens, Siale Piutau, Chris Noakes), an English international and two All Blacks returning from overseas (Thorn, Ellison), Now, first off, you said you didn't include Andrew Hore as he was originally from the Highlanders region. I don't see how this is relevant. There is now very little connection between provincial and SuoeRugby level. Each province is now a feeder for any franchise. What is relevant is that Andrew Hore had 92 caps for the All Blacks and was an established starting player for the Hurricanes when he was 'poached'. If we weren't to consider Andrew Hore, this would mean that if in several years Ma'afu Fia, Aaron Smith, Lima Sopoaga, Shaun Treeby and Kurt Baker (after three years of being in the All Blacks and carving up for club and country - all hypothetical) were bought back by the Hurricanes, they wouldn't be considered poaches which would seem rather bizarre - I'm sure you would consider them poaches. So as I see it, that is 5 (out of 15 starting players) compared to 2 (out of 15) poached. I believe that is a huge difference.

Now I've got that out the way, I don't think it really even matters if even their whole squad is 'poached'. I don't think anyone should blame the Highlanders for this. If a guy like Ma'a Nonu is looking for a new team, you're not going to say no. Blame the players or the Hurricanes (and other teams) management for letting these players go but I don't think Highlanders are to blame at all. And either way, it really is just the nature of professional sport.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

the stadium might have helped with a couple of guys (slade and gear) but i think the two big changes are

a move even divide of finances across the five teams (i remember seeing something three or four years ago that explained the crusaders and blues got something like 1.5m more than the highanders from the NZRU, canes and chiefs somewhere inbetween)

and new management has stopped overpaying sub par guys thus freeing up more funds to get in some real talent. previously when we were feilding guys like Noakes and Matthew Berquist at first five they might be getting more than the likes of barrett or even cruden when he was at the canes but getting no where near the return

 

[donmcdazzle]

Sadly that seems to be the sentiment of many from the Taranaki, Manawatu, and Hawke's Bay regions, and I can understand it completely. I have just seen Richard Lee-lo has been signed by the Canes, yet they didn't want to offer Emery (probably the most promising midfield back I have seen in years) a full contract . Like you, I can't blame many of these players for leaving!

It's a borderline pisstake at times. If he played for Wellington he would have had a 2 year contract in front of him after about round 3.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

For once, I disagree with you, Darwin. I don't think that Highlanders' signings are anything remotely like the Chiefs'. The way I see it, the Chiefs used a Moneyball-style approach and signed up players that they could get with little money. These included an unwanted, but talented player (Robbie Robinson), talented players that hadn't yet shown their full ability at ITM Cup level (Declan O'Donnell, Maritino Nemani), and players that had performed at ITM Cup level but, for various reasons, other franchises weren't exactly jumping to get at (Andrew Horrell, Michael Fitzgerald, Shane Cleaver, Asaeli Tikoirotuma, Alex Bradley, Josh Hohneck). These were bolstered by two young but very talented players (Ben Tameifuna, Brodie Retallick) and two high profile signings (Sonny Bill Williams, Aaron Cruden). Now Mahoni Schwalger was also signed but I wouldn't exactly put him up there with the likes of Cruden. He wasn't starting on a regular basis for the Highlanders (and the player in front of him was playing very well, but it isn't like he was the best in the world). Most of these guys would have been seen as average signings, and like I said, there are two or three good ones there.

In the same period, the Highlanders signed up a very good first-five (he wasn't starting for the Crusaders, but he had represented the All Blacks), Hosea Gear and Andrew Hore. Now these have been followed by Tony Woodcock, and Ma'a Nonu. To add some balance, you also signed up some young and promising players (Ma'afu Fia, Elliot Dixon, Aaron Smith, Lima Sopoaga, Shaun Treeby, Telusa Veainu, Kurt Baker), some players who struggled for game time in other franchises (Callum Retallick, Jarrad Hoeata, Nick Crosswell, Kade Poki), some guys largely overlooked by other franchises (Doug Tietjens, Siale Piutau, Chris Noakes), an English international and two All Blacks returning from overseas (Thorn, Ellison), Now, first off, you said you didn't include Andrew Hore as he was originally from the Highlanders region. I don't see how this is relevant. There is now very little connection between provincial and SuoeRugby level. Each province is now a feeder for any franchise. What is relevant is that Andrew Hore had 92 caps for the All Blacks and was an established starting player for the Hurricanes when he was 'poached'. If we weren't to consider Andrew Hore, this would mean that if in several years Ma'afu Fia, Aaron Smith, Lima Sopoaga, Shaun Treeby and Kurt Baker (after three years of being in the All Blacks and carving up for club and country - all hypothetical) were bought back by the Hurricanes, they wouldn't be considered poaches which would seem rather bizarre - I'm sure you would consider them poaches. So as I see it, that is 5 (out of 15 starting players) compared to 2 (out of 15) poached. I believe that is a huge difference.

Now I've got that out the way, I don't think it really even matters if even their whole squad is 'poached'. I don't think anyone should blame the Highlanders for this. If a guy like Ma'a Nonu is looking for a new team, you're not going to say no. Blame the players or the Hurricanes (and other teams) management for letting these players go but I don't think Highlanders are to blame at all. And either way, it really is just the nature of professional sport.

in all fairness, for all that, Hore, Nonu and Gear all wanted to leave the Canes, it was very well publicised they didn't like or were not part of what Hammett is building. Same with Woodcock, he said he wanted to leave and find a new challenge. Now if you dont believe any of them and think they wanted the rockstar lifestyle...in dunedin.... then fair enough but none of these guys have been made to move

 

[bobbilycious]

in all fairness, for all that, Hore, Nonu and Gear all wanted to leave the Canes, it was very well publicised they didn't like or were not part of what Hammett is building. Same with Woodcock, he said he wanted to leave and find a new challenge. Now if you dont believe any of them and think they wanted the rockstar lifestyle...in dunedin.... then fair enough but none of these guys have been made to move

Yep, just like I said in the last paragraph, blame the players or the team that let them go. You can't blame the Highlanders for taking on top quality players.

 

[Darwin]

For once, I disagree with you, Darwin. I don't think that Highlanders' signings are anything remotely like the Chiefs'. The way I see it, the Chiefs used a Moneyball-style approach and signed up players that they could get with little money.

These included an unwanted, but talented player (Robbie Robinson), talented players that hadn't yet shown their full ability at ITM Cup level (Declan O'Donnell, Maritino Nemani), and players that had performed at ITM Cup level but, for various reasons, other franchises weren't exactly jumping to get at (Andrew Horrell, Michael Fitzgerald, Shane Cleaver, Asaeli Tikoirotuma, Alex Bradley, Josh Hohneck). These were bolstered by two young but very talented players (Ben Tameifuna, Brodie Retallick) and two high profile signings (Sonny Bill Williams, Aaron Cruden). Now Mahoni Schwalger was also signed but I wouldn't exactly put him up there with the likes of Cruden. He wasn't starting on a regular basis for the Highlanders (and the player in front of him was playing very well, but it isn't like he was the best in the world). Most of these guys would have been seen as average signings, and like I said, there are two or three good ones there.

In the same period, the Highlanders signed up a very good first-five (he wasn't starting for the Crusaders, but he had represented the All Blacks), Hosea Gear and Andrew Hore. Now these have been followed by Tony Woodcock, and Ma'a Nonu. To add some balance, you also signed up some young and promising players (Ma'afu Fia, Elliot Dixon, Aaron Smith, Lima Sopoaga, Shaun Treeby, Telusa Veainu, Kurt Baker), some players who struggled for game time in other franchises (Callum Retallick, Jarrad Hoeata, Nick Crosswell, Kade Poki), some guys largely overlooked by other franchises (Doug Tietjens, Siale Piutau, Chris Noakes), an English international and two All Blacks returning from overseas (Thorn, Ellison),

Exactly like the Highlanders - the only difference is that instead of getting 3 marquee players (if you include Slade for the Highlanders you have to include Schwalger for the Chiefs, who was actually the Highlanders starting hooker by the end of 2011), the Highlanders got 5. Apart from that the rest of the the Highlanders team is made up of either local players of under-rated/under-valued imports just like the Chiefs of last season ​(as you have summarized well). Yes, I certainly accept that the Highlanders have a few more more 'star imports' than the Chiefs had last season, but the way people are talking you would think that the whole team is made up of 'poached' players, which is far from the case!

Now, first off, you said you didn't include Andrew Hore as he was originally from the Highlanders region. I don't see how this is relevant. There is now very little connection between provincial and SuoeRugby level. Each province is now a feeder for any franchise. What is relevant is that Andrew Hore had 92 caps for the All Blacks and was an established starting player for the Hurricanes when he was 'poached'. If we weren't to consider Andrew Hore, this would mean that if in several years Ma'afu Fia, Aaron Smith, Lima Sopoaga, Shaun Treeby and Kurt Baker (after three years of being in the All Blacks and carving up for club and country - all hypothetical) were bought back by the Hurricanes, they wouldn't be considered poaches which would seem rather bizarre - I'm sure you would consider them poaches. So as I see it, that is 5 (out of 15 starting players) compared to 2 (out of 15) poached. I believe that is a huge difference.

Personally I don't consider any player moves 'poaches' (I don't like the term myself, that is why I use it semi-sarcastically in quotation marks). I accept we live in a professional world, and players move round for a variety of reasons. Your point on Hore is valid, though I do think he is a very different situation than the likes of Gear, Woodcock, and Nonu. Hore wasn't wanted by the Canes, so it was only natural that he came back to his home region. The main reason I mentioned Hore was in regards to suggestions that the Highlanders kept importing players they hadn't produced, when in fact if he hadn't been 'poached' from the region initially I'm sure he would now be regarded as a bit of Legend of Otago rugby

Now I've got that out the way, I don't think it really even matters if even their whole squad is 'poached'. I don't think anyone should blame the Highlanders for this. If a guy like Ma'a Nonu is looking for a new team, you're not going to say no. Blame the players or the Hurricanes (and other teams) management for letting these players go but I don't think Highlanders are to blame at all. And either way, it really is just the nature of professional sport.

Agree entirely with this.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

so...to summerize everything we've learnt.....the Highlanders are awesome



i'm glad we could all agree :devban:

 

[Draggs]

so...to summerize everything we've learnt.....the Highlanders are awesome



i'm glad we could all agree :devban:

Bring back Tony Brown; yes.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Tony can stay right where he is for at least a couple more days

 

[Larksea]

highlanders = awesome on paper

we all know how that worked out for the blues. I think with such a strong squad filled with so many proven/experienced players there will come a lot of expectation, more than they have had for a long time. I think the will start 2013 with a stronger player base than the Chiefs 2012 squad.

Adding the likes of Woodcock, Nonu and Brad Thorn instantly gives them ***le winner expectation I think.

you would have to say they would be expected to beat the chiefs. And be expected to win games in the republic and make the top 4 in the playoffs.

Has it been confirmed if Thomson is staying or not?


woodcock
hore
???
Thorn
Hoeata
Thomson
Hardie
Manu
A Smith
Colin Slade
Hosea Gear
Nonu
Ellison
???
Ben Smith

off the top of my head, few gaps but the overall strength is obvious, just missed out on Ben Franks - man that would have been awesome.

 

[bobbilycious]

I suggest that if Ben Smith is playing two positions, it might be advisable if they were wing and fullback, as opposed to halfback and fullback

I doubt the Highlanders will still get Maitland and I think Piutau is playing in Japan. As far as I know, they still have Poki so he is a good option. There are also other guys out there without contracts that wouldn't be awful (and let's face it, they don't need another star, they just need someone who can finish and is fairly safe).
Chuck in Chris King at tighthead or perhaps Ma'afu Fia.

 

[Darwin]

highlanders = awesome on paper

we all know how that worked out for the blues. I think with such a strong squad filled with so many proven/experienced players there will come a lot of expectation, more than they have had for a long time. I think the will start 2013 with a stronger player base than the Chiefs 2012 squad.

Adding the likes of Woodcock, Nonu and Brad Thorn instantly gives them ***le winner expectation I think.

you would have to say they would be expected to beat the chiefs. And be expected to win games in the republic and make the top 4 in the playoffs.

Has it been confirmed if Thomson is staying or not?


woodcock
hore
???
Thorn
Hoeata
Thomson
Hardie
Manu
Ben Smith
Colin Slade
Hosea Gear
Nonu
Ellison
???
Ben Smith

off the top of my head, few gaps but the overall strength is obvious, just missed out on Ben Franks - man that would have been awesome.

As awesome as Ben Smith is I think they would be better playing Aaron Smith at halfback, rather than make Ben play in two positions (though he was a halfback at high school.... is there anything that man can't so?). EDIT: bobbilycious beat me to it

Thomson hasn't been confirmed yet - I suspect we will hear about him within the next few weeks. If he does leave, and we manage to secure Thorn I would imagine Hoeata would start at 6, with Bekhuis and Thorn as the locks. TH prop is a toss-up between Fia and King - King has the experience and a great work-rate, but I would start Fia who looked good in his limited chances last season.

It will certainly be a different challenge for the Highlanders this season, as there will be huge public expectation for them to do well. It was probably easier for them in previous seasons when they had far more average teams, and the public were happy if they could pull off the odd upset win!

 

[Larksea]

oops, I have ben smith on the brain, I think he's taken over my frontal lobe...

 

[Darwin]

oops, I have ben smith on the brain, I think he's taken over my frontal lobe...

Who doesn't

 

[donmcdazzle]

Thomson hasn't been confirmed yet - I suspect we will hear about him within the next few weeks.

His GF is that bird who used to go out with Richie McCaw, Jessie Gurunathan. She is an aspiring celeb/singer or something. Apparently she went to Dunedin last year and didn't much fancy it and would rather they live in Auckland, hence the talk of him going north.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

if he does go i would really like another openside as our ball fetching will be diminished

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Scott Waldrom, anyone?

 

[bobbilycious]

You already have Tim Boys and Doug Tietjens (and, obviously, Hardie). I can't see Joseph trying to get another openside. I would have thought he'd go for a specialist blindside option just in case Hoeata gets injured.