[EOYT] France vs South Africa 23/11/13

[Big Ewis]

France VS South Africa
23 November 2013
21:00 CET (UTC+1)

Location: Stade de France, Saint-Denis, Paris.
Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)




​

France are coming off a mixed performance. Yes they've scored 4 tries for the first time in a long time, albeit against a "Tier 2 nation", the first they've faced in a long time; but they looked awful, even clueless at times on attack. Surely due in part to the lack of time together compared to every single other nation, France has certainly proven they can hang with the big boys in terms of containing them, keeping the scores low, and collecting penalties from various points on the field.
Given the quality backs they have, and have added recently, it surely is a shame they can't quite tap into that potential fully.
In relation to the Springboks, the latter are just coming off a blowout in Scotland, 28-0 on 4 converted tries. If France play anything like they've played against Tonga, and South Africa can convert the French errors into points of their own; France could be in for a long night after a promising Autumn Tour so far.

France have played their strengths in two tests so far, those being the scrum, mauls and tight defense. They've also shown some great work at the breakdown, especially against NZL.
Unfortunately for les bleus, girth and forward play happen to be the Boks' specialties.

Some things to watch:
- the scrums, two big packs finally meet for the first time since summer of 2010.
France will see their two main debilitating injuries return in the form of loosehead prop Thomas Domingo, and no. 8 loose forward Louis Picamoles (this just in). The scrum being at full strength for France most certainly is good news, and timely news; while Picamoles will add a dimension France hasn't had in the last two tests this November, a big powerful ball carrier as opposed to leaner flankers. Once again, utterly on time.

- The Springbok backs will be looking to make some noise and complete the world class play of their robust forwards to add to the scoreboard, while the French backs, depending on selection, will be looking for chemistry and good reflexes to finally come about to do the thing France has had difficulty with this whole year - finishing plays. For France, individual technical prowess and physiological qualities are not exactly scarce in the back line, only coming together will be the great challenge.
Experience and power for the SA backs, youth and adventure for the French.

 

[Chikwa]

I watched the highlights of France vs Tonga .Truthfully the first thought that came to my mind is why are pundits extremely critical of New Zealand when they don't play classic New Zealand rugby.In comparison Les Bleus were atrocious against a clearly inferior team! Their standard of play in all aspects was no where near what they displayed in the game against the world champions and the undisputed world no 1's the mighty all blacks! The next question I asked my self is why is Philip saint Andre still in a job? Probably be because he was a great centre.The French have some much talent at their disposal they should be able to build a great team.Between Les Bleus and the Springboks they have lost 6 times to the clearly underrated All blacks.Hopefully Les Bleus will come to play with conviction because the Boks have a nose for blood like no other Top rugby team in the world:When they smell weakness they will tear you apart.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Starting early I see on the threads...

Of the 3 EOYT tests for the boks, I'm the most nervous about this one, purely because we have a poor record of winning against the French in France. I just hope we have a better singer of the National Anthem this time around. Not some weed-smoking rastafarian whose hair is longer than his career.

That said, these last 2 tests have shown that our older guys haven't lost their panache, and our youngsters are hungry to become part of a winning culture. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Boks will have a record of only being beaten by the All Blacks for this year...

 

[Big Ewis]

The Springboks have clearly awakened this year again. Similar in nature to what happened as far as I know from the mid-late 90's when they were really good to the horrible 2002-03 period. Then they got good again, won the RWC again and then toned down again circa 2010 til 2012. And now they're on the up again, just in time for the World Cup in two years.
They have become really good again, as more than just a tag we give them by default. And there's room to improve.

I think this match has the potential to be a classic. The French have a big performance right around the corner with all that talent on paper, they could finally click just that one time, because in truth the only thing keeping them from exploding as a top 3, 4 team definitively is chemistry. The fact that we're in peril of falling to 6th or 7th world wide or wtvr most certainly has nothing to do with a lack of talent, and that at any position.

Like I've said before, if S.A. can keep their composure and focus, and the France players can feel comfortable together just as if this were their club, this could be a candidate for game of the year, because there's loads of talent and quality and ability on both teams, and in many sectors of this magnificent game of Rugby.
But surely, surely France need to click on attack like the individual players do in their respective clubs. Against Tonga, some moments were scary as far as the attack goes. If they have such moments against S.A., not only are we going to lose almost certainly, but a potential battle for the ages would be lost. We haven't played the Springboks sat home since 2009, and boy we played well that night.

I hope France will show more than tight defense and their standard qualities. Tales, Fofana, Fickou, Bastareaud, Fritz, Médard, Guitoune, Dulin - goddamn France, come on. What more do you want ?! (yes, I understand the no time together fact...).

 

[Jaguares]

Long time for the game, buddy

 

[Big Ewis]

Long time for the game, buddy

oh, is it etiquette to wait for a certain day of the week to start a thread on some online Rugby forum ? What logic commands an entire community to be mute for a certain period of time before it can finally do what it's supposed to do: discuss ?
Or maybe did you have a preferred day of the week, I'm sorry, I'm so inconsiderate...how does Wednesday sound to you ?

 

[Jaguares]

oh, is it etiquette to wait for a certain day of the week to start a thread on some online Rugby forum ? What logic commands an entire community to be mute for a certain period of time before it can finally do what it's supposed to do: discuss ?
Or maybe did you have a preferred day of the week, I'm sorry, I'm so inconsiderate...how does Wednesday sound to you ?

It's a suggestion buddy, u know u have my support. Here are some forum members who don't like you, but you have my support.

:cheers:

 

[TRF_heineken]

The Springboks have clearly awakened this year again.

What??

How does a team awaken when they are the second best team in the world for more than a year now??

 

[Chikwa]

What??

How does a team awaken when they are the second best team in the world for more than a year now??

And pushing close to first . Meyer has done a very good job at the helm.For the sake of the welfare of rugby ( hopefully the French are competitive .unlike the all blacks the springboks dispatch weaker opposition with utter ruthlessness .

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The big one for November, at least for SA.

I like that we have kept Wales and Scotland tryless. If we can continue with the effectiveness in defence and be clinical when our opportunities come up- and I expect less opportunities against France- then there is no reason why we can't set right our terrible run against France at home.

A very difficult game to predict though; who wins when both participants show rock? I think our similarities in play is the main reason why home advantage has counted for so much in the past in this particular match up. I don't particularly buy that France have more creativity in the backs and we more girth, at least not so much so that it becomes a factor as I wouldn't be surprised if SA showed some daring in the back and I wouldn't be surprised if direct back play from France was effective, it all depends on the ball the forwards provide IMO and that is a difficult one to predict though I expect France to have a slight advantage in the scrum and we in the line-out. The break down is too unpredictable though but Wayne Barnes generally stamps his authority in this area thankfully.



There are a couple fo question marks/concerns for SA IMO;
3) The loss our both Jannie du Plessis and Frans Malherbe can hurt us here though as tight head is something of a soft(ish) spot for us. Coenie, though more than able in the loose, is not renowned at scrum time and he has not yet shrugged the tag of being a 'converted loose head' yet, at least not in my eyes. I expect Lourens Adriaanse will come in and TBH we don't really lose much if anything at all going from Malherbe to Adriaanse. I would have loved to see Malherbe go up against a master technician like Domingo though as Gethin Jenkins even though a very good prop is not rated for his prowess at the scrum as much as his all round game and I don't even know the Scottish guys.
2) Bismarck coming back in to start? What happened with his line-out throwing on the weekend!!?! Maybe we should stick with Strauss?
4) Eben should probably start ahead of Botha but it just seems outrageous that our on form lock in young PSdT probably won't see game time this tour.
6) Is Louw alright? I know the stretcher was just a precaution but still..
13) I think Jaque Fourie went from a quiet but solid game against Wales to a down right shocker against Scotland... if you get paid R360000 a month for it I expect you to be able to handle or at least catch a ball. Perhaps I was too harsh on JJ Engeelbrecht or expected too much from Fourie coming back?

 

[TRF_heineken]

The big one for November, at least for SA.

I like that we have kept Wales and Scotland tryless. If we can continue with the effectiveness in defence and be clinical when our opportunities come up- and I expect less opportunities against France- then there is no reason why we can't set right our terrible run against France at home.

A very difficult game to predict though; who wins when both participants show rock? I think our similarities in play is the main reason why home advantage has counted for so much in the past in this particular match up. I don't particularly buy that France have more creativity in the backs and we more girth, at least not so much so that it becomes a factor as I wouldn't be surprised if SA showed some daring in the back and I wouldn't be surprised if direct back play from France was effective, it all depends on the ball the forwards provide IMO and that is a difficult one to predict though I expect France to have a slight advantage in the scrum and we in the line-out. The break down is too unpredictable though but Wayne Barnes generally stamps his authority in this area thankfully.



There are a couple fo question marks/concerns for SA IMO;
3) The loss our both Jannie du Plessis and Frans Malherbe can hurt us here though as tight head is something of a soft(ish) spot for us. Coenie, though more than able in the loose, is not renowned at scrum time and he has not yet shrugged the tag of being a 'converted loose head' yet, at least not in my eyes. I expect Lourens Adriaanse will come in and TBH we don't really lose much if anything at all going from Malherbe to Adriaanse. I would have loved to see Malherbe go up against a master technician like Domingo though as Gethin Jenkins even though a very good prop is not rated for his prowess at the scrum as much as his all round game and I don't even know the Scottish guys.
2) Bismarck coming back in to start? What happened with his line-out throwing on the weekend!!?! Maybe we should stick with Strauss?
4) Eben should probably start ahead of Botha but it just seems outrageous that our on form lock in young PSdT probably won't see game time this tour.
6) Is Louw alright? I know the stretcher was just a precaution but still..
13) I think Jaque Fourie went from a quiet but solid game against Wales to a down right shocker against Scotland... if you get paid R360000 a month for it I expect you to be able to handle or at least catch a ball. Perhaps I was too harsh on JJ Engeelbrecht or expected too much from Fourie coming back?

According to Sport24 only Frans is an injury concern with a rib-cartilage injury and will in all likelihood not play. I also expect Louwrens to be drafted in, but I suspect Coenie to start...

HM said that both Willem Alberts and Francois Louw would be fine to play and that Louw's stretchered off was just precautionary.

HM also said that he is clear on the team for this match: http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SpringboksintheUK/Heyneke-clear-on-Paris-team-20131117

Now I have an idea of what we might see what the team will look like:

1. Beast
2. Bismarck (get your line-out throws together)
3. Coenie Oosthuizen
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Flip van der Merwe (like him or not, he has been playing great)
6. Flouw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Duane Vermeulen

9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Morne Steyn
11. Bryan Habana
12. JDV
13. Jaque Fourie
14. JPP
15. Pat Lambie

16. Adriaan Strauss
17. Guthro Steenkamp
18. Louwrens Adriaanse
19. PSDT
20. Siya Kolisi
21. Jano Vermaak
22. Willie Le Roux
23. JJ Engelbrecht

Fourie Du Preez will not play the final game on tour as he has to return to Japan for his club's obligations that he has to fulfill, so Jano Vermaak comes into the squad.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

According to Sport24 only Frans is an injury concern with a rib-cartilage injury and will in all likelihood not play. I also expect Louwrens to be drafted in, but I suspect Coenie to start...

HM said that both Willem Alberts and Francois Louw would be fine to play and that Louw's stretchered off was just precautionary.

HM also said that he is clear on the team for this match: http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SpringboksintheUK/Heyneke-clear-on-Paris-team-20131117

Now I have an idea of what we might see what the team will look like:

1. Beast
2. Bismarck (get your line-out throws together)
3. Coenie Oosthuizen
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Flip van der Merwe (like him or not, he has been playing great)
6. Flouw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Duane Vermeulen

9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Morne Steyn
11. Bryan Habana
12. JDV
13. Jaque Fourie
14. JPP
15. Pat Lambie

16. Adriaan Strauss
17. Guthro Steenkamp
18. Louwrens Adriaanse
19. PSDT
20. Siya Kolisi
21. Jano Vermaak
22. Willie Le Roux
23. JJ Engelbrecht

Fourie Du Preez will not play the final game on tour as he has to return to Japan for his club's obligations that he has to fulfill, so Jano Vermaak comes into the squad.

Yikes.

Other than that as good a pack as we can manage injuries considered and without PSdT but if he is on the bench I'll be happy and TBF Flippie has been playing better than ever in a Bok jersey though I don't see him as more than back-up.

That backline though... the words 'cumbersome' and 'unbalanced' spring to my mind. FdP really is a big loss and then why not start Le Roux? That on its own would add a little something as we'll be having to counter attack and intercept as we aren't going to be doing anything constructive with that backline.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yikes.

Other than that as good a pack as we can manage injuries considered and without PSdT but if he is on the bench I'll be happy and TBF Flippie has been playing better than ever in a Bok jersey though I don't see him as more than back-up.

That backline though... the words 'cumbersome' and 'unbalanced' spring to my mind. FdP really is a big loss and then why not start Le Roux? That on its own would add a little something as we'll be having to counter attack and intercept as we aren't going to be doing anything constructive with that backline.

Yikes indeed!! The news reports is just giving it away a bit... HM saying that the Scotland test will have no bearing on his team selection makes me think that the Welsh game will have an influence.

Ruan Pienaar should start, he has been with the team the whole tour/year. Vermaak will only be part of the team this week and Shreuder is only there to learn.

Jaque Fourie and Lambie will be picked ahead of JJ and Willie purely because on defense they are a bit better.

 

[austingtir]

Wow didnt even realise Jaque Fourie was coming back. SA will have a pretty mean (experienced) midfield next year then?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Wow didnt even realise Jaque Fourie was coming back. SA will have a pretty mean (experienced) midfield next year then?

Not too sure. Jaque Fourie is still staying in Japan but his newly negotiated contract now allowes him to play test rugby if HM decides to pick him. He has started two games now and underwhelmed in the 2nd. So I wouldn't be too sure about his place in the team long term but that said he only really has JJ Englebrecht as competition for the no.13 jersey at the moment. If JJ can improve his defence then I'd prefer him TBH.

At 12 Jean de Villiers has the inside track being captain and all and has played better than he has for years. Frans Steyn has a new Bok contract so one would assume HM has plans for him once he regains full match fitness and then there is young Jan Serfontein who is considered the long term option.

So I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of different looking midfield partnerships for us over the next 2 years.

 

[Big Ewis]

The big questions in France are this so far:
- what third row ? We KNOW there is no other but Picamoles at no.8, and though he's returning from injury and hasn't played in the first 2 Autumn tests, I expect him to be brutal as always. He corresponds so perfectly to the physical density South Africa will look to impose, how timely...how timely. But then, Dusautoir has been a quiet but sure tackler this November; he's still efficient, and focused, and has lots of heart and passion to instill into the game.
Of course Ouedraogo is out AGAIN thanks to those delicate Tongans, his work rate will be missed but we're not without depth. Many want Bernard Le Roux, how controversial ay ? But I agree his physicality (no wonder) would match the Boks'. Nyanga is out of the group - and finally, the great find of this martial Spring, Wenceslas Lauret and his excellent match against the All-Blokes. Meters ball in hand, efficient, brutal at times in the rucks, powerful and focused on defense...he's a must against S.A. and it would confirm his status as a formidable enforcer for les bleus.

- Wing ??? There are many good wingers in France that swarm throughout the Top 14, but we're looking for stability - DESPERATELY (!!!!!!!) - and that's one position we've been fairly consistent with. The problem is: Huget for some reason, though not terrible, has never been as on-form during int'ls as he usually is for le Stade Toulousain. But he offers the muscle to stay with the thick Springboks, and we'll be looking to match that physical girth as best we can. Also, he was rested against Tonga.
Which brings me to the second point: Sofiane Guitoune. MOTM ("talent d'or" to be exact) against Tonga, he scored his first try in a Bleus uniform in 6 minutes of play in his first ever int'l. He was also played a decisive part in the Dulin try. All-around, he had a great game, not just filling the lane as a wing, but asserting himself globally in the battle. Only thing is: 85kgs, and he gave away 1 if not both Tongan tries because of his lack of weight. Wouldn't he be something highly risky to try, also given this match would hand him only his 2nd cap ? Surely a great risk. I'm guessing Huget-Médard...but he sure can score a try on the other hand.......

- Last thing is, with lock Yoann Maestri red-carded and gone, thanks to another Tongan mastermind and his carefully calculated subtlety; we've called Flanquart back up. Complementing ex-captain and rested Pascal Papé, or off the bench for Vahaamahina who's shown excellent elements both on attack and on defense these first 2 Autumn tests.

As for the certainties:
* Parra-Tales at the transition: 9th half-back pair tried under Saint-André, it works well already, stability please. No debate.
* Mas-Kayser-Domingo, the tight 3.
* Fofana+Fritz at center: bulky and proven defenders, no.12 Wesley Fofana has explained he enjoyed tackling a lot more these days though he was more offensive-minded younger. No question, this pair has worked on both ends.
* Dulin at FB.

My starting XV:

1 - Thomas Domingo
2 - Benjamin Kayser
3 - Nicolas Mas
4 - Sébastien Vahaamahina
5 - Pascal Papé
6 - Wenceslas Lauret
7 - Thierry Dusautoir
8 - Louis Picamoles
9 - Morgan Parra
10 - Rémi Talès
11 - Maxime Médard
12 - Wesley Fofana
13 - Florian Fritz
14 - Yoann Huget
15 - Brice Dulin

 

[ruggabee]

The big questions in France are this so far:
- what third row ? We KNOW there is no other but Picamoles at no.8, and though he's returning from injury and hasn't played in the first 2 Autumn tests, I expect him to be brutal as always. He corresponds so perfectly to the physical density South Africa will look to impose, how timely...how timely. But then, Dusautoir has been a quiet but sure tackler this November; he's still efficient, and focused, and has lots of heart and passion to instill into the game.
Of course Ouedraogo is out AGAIN thanks to those delicate Tongans, his work rate will be missed but we're not without depth. Many want Bernard Le Roux, how controversial ay ? But I agree his physicality (no wonder) would match the Boks'. Nyanga is out of the group - and finally, the great find of this martial Spring, Wenceslas Lauret and his excellent match against the All-Blokes. Meters ball in hand, efficient, brutal at times in the rucks, powerful and focused on defense...he's a must against S.A. and it would confirm his status as a formidable enforcer for les bleus.

- Wing ??? There are many good wingers in France that swarm throughout the Top 14, but we're looking for stability - DESPERATELY (!!!!!!!) - and that's one position we've been fairly consistent with. The problem is: Huget for some reason, though not terrible, has never been as on-form during int'ls as he usually is for le Stade Toulousain. But he offers the muscle to stay with the thick Springboks, and we'll be looking to match that physical girth as best we can. He was rested against Tonga, also.
Which brings me to the second point: Sofiane Guitoune. MOTM ("talent d'or" to be exact) against Tonga, he scored his first try in a Bleus uniform in 6 minutes of play in his first ever int'l. All-around, he had a great game, not just filling the lane as a wing, but asserting himself globally in the battle. Only thing is: 85kgs, and he gave away 1 if not both Tongan tries because of his lack of weight. Wouldn't he be something highly risky to try, also given this match would hand him only his 2nd cap ? Surely a great risk. I'm guessing Huget-Médard...but he sure can score a try on the other hand.......

- Last thing is, with lock Yoann Maestri red-carded and gone, thanks to another Tongan mastermind and his carefully calculated subtlety; we've called Flanquart back up. Complementing ex-captain and rested Pascal Papé, or off the bench for Vahaamahina who's shown excellent elements both on attack and on defense these first 2 Autumn tests.

As for the certainties:
* Parra-Tales at the transition: 9th half-back pair tried under Saint-André, it works well already, stability please. No debate.
* Mas-Kayser-Domingo, the tight 3.
* Fofana+Fritz at center: bulky and proven defenders, no.12 Wesley Fofana has explained he enjoyed tackling a lot more these days though he was more offensive-minded younger. No question, this pair has worked on both ends.
* Dulin at FB.

My starting XV:

1 - Thomas Domingo
2 - Benjamin Kayser
3 - Nicolas Mas
4 - Sébastien Vahaamahina
5 - Pascal Papé
6 - Wenceslas Lauret
7 - Thierry Dusautoir
8 - Louis Picamoles
9 - Morgan Parra
10 - Rémi Talès
11 - Maxime Médard
12 - Wesley Fofana
13 - Florian Fritz
14 - Yoann Huget
15 - Brice Dulin

That's a strong looking team. That backrow has the potential to do a lot of damage. I hope the French replicate or improve upon the AB game. It would be a shame to see them drop off as they so often do.

 

[Big Ewis]

That's a strong looking team. That backrow has the potential to do a lot of damage. I hope the French replicate or improve upon the AB game. It would be a shame to see them drop off as they so often do.

How often has France not looked strong ? But the results haven't always been there...that's the story of France Rugby.
Right now, it's about using that potential. We know we have it. We've had it for a long time, and have come close often in 2013. In fact we've come close every single time but the one 30-0 blowout.
I'm hopeful, though, because we're really starting to find a long awaited stability. We're trimming that XV down. There is less discussion about potential players for spots. There is more appreciation for about 80% of the XV unanimously, and we all agree as fans we want stability, even if many other interesting combinations exist...

Right now, it's only about a XV feeling familiar with each other, because we don't have much time together as a team. We're really mercenaries, all those guys know is club Rugby and then we have 3 crappy "training days" in October and then 3 in November. Consistency and quality, world class play in all sectors (scrum, defense, attack...) are right around the corner for France; these guys just need to mesh, and that'll necessarily happen eventually.
I just hope we look prepared and look like 'a team' for this one. Doesn't matter if we lose. If we're just fine-tuned as a group and "feel" each other, we won't come far from winning it.

 

[nickdnz]

Not sure what NZL is..New Zea Land?

But this game I'm really looking forward to. I think South Africa will take it based on just more time jelling as a side - and they've looked a lot more dynamic this year, particularly in the backline. I'll be very disappointed if Willie Le Roux doesn't start. Also I feel South Africa aren't making it easy on themselves selecting some of these overseas based players. Fourie du Preez has come back looking every bit the general of the Boks backline he was when he left, but if he's now not avalible for this match SA now don't seem to be able to adapt well to Ruan Pienaar.

Habanna, Pieterson and Le Roux could be a lethal combination - I HM will go much more conservative.

The scrum will be very interesting as well - I expect it to be a very even contest (I'd probably start Steenkamp over Beast but it won't happen).

 

[Bada-Bing!]

This is a game I'm looking foward to; bring it on.