England's back line

[goodNumber10]

good post!

 

[Peat]

Bah. You guys are too lenient.

As far as I'm concerned, we've got one World Class player, and that's Corbisiero.

I might grudgingly allow Tuilagi as well but there's no doubt he could improve a lot and his weaknesses might disqualify him.

 

[Big Ewis]

good post!

you look really really surprised !!....eh, can't blame you !

Bah. You guys are too lenient.

As far as I'm concerned, we've got one World Class player, and that's Corbisiero.

I might grudgingly allow Tuilagi as well but there's no doubt he could improve a lot and his weaknesses might disqualify him.

Everybody's got a differing definition of "world class". For me, that means *definitely within test level capability, as good as any other at his position more or less*. For others, it means would make a World 23, like, best or second best at respective position world wide.
I haven't seen Corbs since the Lions tour, so can't include him anywhere prestigious until I see him perform at least for 80min once again. But whether Tuilagi lacks smarts and passing ability isn't going to stop him from making the world class group; by any definition. Any team would want a (Manu) Tuilagi.
For me England has Yarde, Tuilagi and Brown as "world class". The second rowers are right there but I'm not 100% convinced, and Care but he hasn't confirmed he could maintain that 6N form.

Everything changes so fast in pro sports, the form of players, how we perceive their quality. Just some time ago, like 6N season, I'd have Care in there, Brown as maybe the best 15 in the world, and Billy Vunipola as potentially the best 8 in the world or second best after Read. That match (against Toulon was it, the H Cup final ?) Vunipola looked almost harmless and completely figured out, after NZ Care wasn't in the conversations anymore, and Brown looked completely accessible again (although probably fatigued).

 

[Peat]

You make a good point re definitions of World Class and Corbs' injuries, but Corbs is so brutal when he's there I forgive him.

I think my current definition of World Class is "Will he be in the chat for best ever on current form".

Care's form has been too flaky over his career. Lawes needs to maintain his good work, Launchbury needs to improve his stamina as he notably tires towards the end of the season sometimes - unsurprising given the work he does I guess, I feel that when he's on form he is World Class but that flaw means I can't rate him as such. Brown... maybe. If he does the same again next season, we can talk.

Not being able to spot when to give is a huge criminal flaw in an outside centre. Yarde's defence isn't good enough.

I've started so I'll finish. Cole's top-end scrummaging has been MIA for too long to count, Robshaw needs more effect on the breakdown, Morgan and Vunipola both need to up the consistency, Farrell lacks the instinct and technical flair of an all-round top 10, and everyone else I'm laughing like a drain at the thought of inclusion.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Bah. You guys are too lenient.

As far as I'm concerned, we've got one World Class player, and that's Corbisiero.

I might grudgingly allow Tuilagi as well but there's no doubt he could improve a lot and his weaknesses might disqualify him.

Launchbury ? Maybe even Steffon ? Though that's a different discussion. Also I would like to put forward Ben Foden who was keeping Brown away until injury.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ed Slater is out for 7 to 9 months due to a injury during the England v Crusaders game.

Huge blow for Leicester (Although the Thorn signing counters it).

Shame as he would have been in the RWC squad with another good season.

Wonder if Kitchener will use this moment to try and stamp claims to a shirt. Certainly adds something none of the other second rows add.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Ed Slater is out for 7 to 9 months due to a injury during the England v Crusaders game.

Huge blow for Leicester (Although the Thorn signing counters it).

Shame as he would have been in the RWC squad with another good season.

Wonder if Kitchener will use this moment to try and stamp claims to a shirt. Certainly adds something none of the other second rows add.

I genuinely think that Kruis will now be in our squad. He made 15 tackles against wasps I think, and is a big unit too top off.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I genuinely think that Kruis will now be in our squad. He made 15 tackles against wasps I think, and is a big unit too top off.

I think he will push it.

Reckon there will be 4 (Maybe 5) second row spots for the RWC, and potentially between Attwood, Kruis and Kitchener (depending on this situation at Leicester). all add something different Kruis would prob be the most versatile of the group, Kitchener the most explosive and Attwood the "older style" enforcer, depends which way Lancaster is leaning I guess.

 

[Geordie]

Very dissapointing for Slater...but locks are not a position we are struggling in.

Launchbury, Lawes, Parling, Attwood.
Kitchener

Then you have the next batch...Kruis, Barrow, Stooke, Itoje...etc etc

Then even in the age grades there are loads...Leicester have numerous like Price, Wells etc .....even the Falcons have 3 crackers who are all over 6'8 and 17-20 stones at 18-19 years old.

I dont like using World Class throwing names in Willy Nilly. I would say would they be in the top 2 in their position.
You could argue Launchbury and Corbs are though Corbs has barely played.

The rest of the team...not so sure. Ill get slated...but i think a bang in top form rampaging Dylan Hartley could be there...but sometimes he's not as consistant for country as he is for club.

Manu is not in my eyes. He needs to develop his hands and skills more...not just be a battering ram.

Danny Care possibly.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I would think originally that there is no way Manu is world class but then which countries wouldn't he start for? He has for to be in the top 2/3 outside centres in the world. Ignoring the fact he has the passing game of an under 18's prop what he does bring, his power and pace make him invaluable.

 

[Big Ewis]

this is going to sound like a broken record on playback, but there is no team that doesn't want a Manu Tuilagi, at VERYYY, VERYYY LEAST on the bench if not on the field to start 9 times out of 10.
The only criticism that really weighs in for me that I've read from English fans here is how he affects the overall attacking form of England. It's true England looked more fluid with Burrell+36 the last 6N, there was a certain continuity, homogeneity. When Tuilagi comes on, it's more like he makes the break and runs on his own, doesn't often insure the pass...
But again: he's the best battering ram in the world, which by default means in Rugby he's a humongous asset to any team he plays on. A guy who can make the clean break easy, requires a whole pack to take down on each ball he carries, thighs like two tree trunks, that Pac Islander's running game, and an ability to punch Chris Ashton right in the face...whatever flaws he could possibly have, you'll have to overlook, because those are qualities you just can't pass on.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I would think originally that there is no way Manu is world class but then which countries wouldn't he start for? He has for to be in the top 2/3 outside centres in the world. Ignoring the fact he has the passing game of an under 18's prop what he does bring, his power and pace make him invaluable.

TBF his passing game isn't that bad, it's just different with England on the whole.

 

[Geordie]

I dont think people are saying dont pick Manu...i think we are saying he's not world class yet. He needs to work on some thing.

He actually does offload well....but he can still improve and England dont take advantage of that. His actual passing isnt great..again this can improve.
He also now and again goes for the gap rather than the person...which id like to see more of. But he's still young...Nonu was pretty similar if memory serves me...

The problem is England havent worked out how to use their backs yet. The wings are almost redundant, Brown for all his broken field running is poor at joining the line and we havent worked out how to get the best of Manu. We should have players running off his shoulders all the time etc.. Burrell was the only one who shone in the 6n...he ran some brilliant lines that led to tries...something Ashton used to do but has since forgotten...for what ever reason.

 

[Crapspray]

I think England have worked out how they want to use their backs, they just don't do it well: crash the ball up the middle and then pick a side for 10/12 to attack from. Fullback joins inside the winger, and the wingers only come off their wings on set plays. It accommodates the poor attacking fly-half and needs a creative inside-centre. The problem has been that for 12 months the battering ram has been absent and the inside-centre has been frustratingly inconsistent. Passing skills are not good enough for set plays either.

For me Tuilagi would be most helped by the presence of some other attack threats. As said, Brown is only good on the counter-attack and that's it. Otherwise, all pile on Manu when he's delivered a crap pass by Farrell/36. Now, if Yarde and Wade get some game time we might actually see Manu not running at three defenders every time he touches the ball. Then it'll be linebreak city (population: one England back with no support runners).

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd quite like to see Manu and Burrell together in the centre. Both are big ball carriers and threats to any players. Having Burrell inside him with his ability to run good lines will free Manu up a bit more as people won't assume it's going to be passed along to him every time. Burrell also seemed more creative in the 6N and has good support play. If Burrell can draw people off Manu so he has a bit more space, he will be even more devastating as he can power through almost any player. We would also have Vunipola further infield as another danger that players would need to watch or Morgan for a more creative player. The likes of Eastmond could then come on later in the game as an impact sub when hopefully players are more tired and his size won't matter so much but his speed could be useful. Also with Manu in a bit more space and hopefully not always being double teamed, we may see a better offloading game from him, likely to Yarde.

This is all theory obviously but I think it would be interesting to see.

 

[Geordie]

Crapspray, Maybe your right. Either way its not working.

A couple of your points are the ones that stand out for me.

"Fullback joins inside the winger"
Mike Brown is a great broken field runner and defender. But hes never going to be a great FB for adding numbers well in the line. If we want that we need to look at Foden, Watson, Nowell...Pennell...etc etc

"and the wingers only come off their wings on set plays."
This is one of the areas that drive me crazy. Ashton scored tries when he came off his wing in open play feeding off big forward carries. In the 6n Burrell did the same from centre ...running great lines. In a time when defences are so tight...you need your wingers showing intelligence and running lines off Tuilagi or Billy V or Ben M.
It is exceptionally naive coaching telling your wings to stay soley on the wing.

"It accommodates the poor attacking fly-half"
Farrell is limited...im really hoping one of Burns or Ford can nail it this season...or maybe even Slade who looks quite tough for a more skilled FH.

"and needs a creative inside-centre. The problem has been that for 12 months the inside-centre has been frustratingly inconsistent.
Twelvetrees is Lancasters obivous choice for 12 but he has been pretty poor.

 

[Geordie]

I'd quite like to see Manu and Burrell together in the centre. Both are big ball carriers and threats to any players. Having Burrell inside him with his ability to run good lines will free Manu up a bit more as people won't assume it's going to be passed along to him every time. Burrell also seemed more creative in the 6N and has good support play. If Burrell can draw people off Manu so he has a bit more space, he will be even more devastating as he can power through almost any player. We would also have Vunipola further infield as another danger that players would need to watch or Morgan for a more creative player. The likes of Eastmond could then come on later in the game as an impact sub when hopefully players are more tired and his size won't matter so much but his speed could be useful. Also with Manu in a bit more space and hopefully not always being double teamed, we may see a better offloading game from him, likely to Yarde.

This is all theory obviously but I think it would be interesting to see.

Thats exactly the point ive just made about the wingers. YOu simply must have players with the ability to run these lines...to change the angle of attack. Otherwise you get what we have been watching for the last 12 months with England.

 

[Peat]

I don't see Burrell taking more players off of Tuilagi. He might give the centres a little more hesitation, but its not like Twelvetrees or Eastmond don't break the line themselves, and more importantly, without the threat of going wide very quickly, the oppo winger is allowed to line up the likelihood of rushing in on Tuilagi.

I'm also not sure what Mike Brown you guys are watching. Did I dream him steaming into the line to take an inside ball off of Robshaw to set up the winning try against Ireland in the 6N? Or him supporting Nowell outwide to get an easy run-in? Only good on the counter-attack my arse. You won't see Brown take the conventional line outside 13 that often, no, but he is forever joining the line. He's just far more likely to join near the breakdown when he sees holes there. We're talking about a full-back who can execute pick and gos.

I feel like a lot of criticisms would not have been made after the Six Nations. To be honest, we didn't really miss Tuilagi in the Six Nations. He's a great asset, but we didn't miss him. We did miss him when not in the centres in NZ, but then completely flipping the backline to put a novice and a guy just back from injury in, when in NZ, is asking for trouble. The centre partnership worked in the 6N. As for Tuilagi, maybe he'd help the other side see the other backs as attacking threats, if he passed more than once a blue moon. His vision of when to give the ball for England has recently been very poor.

 

[goodNumber10]

I seem to recall Mike Brown scoring at leats two trys in the italy game from hitting the line, but i think Foden is the better strike runner but Brown can do it when the Back's aren't crabbing.

The issue is two things, style of play and personnel.

My biggest bugbear on style is that we don't play flat - i don't mean stand flat i mean start deep execute flat, we pass deep to those masked runners and it just doesn't fool anyone. Perfect example of how to execute the two wave back line is Beales try against Australia sorry for the spam but i did this analysis of it: http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/anatomy-try-video-analysis-kurtley-beale/

The key point are, Foley is moving forward when eh takes the ball, even though Beale is running the slide behind and running across field he then brings it right into that magic zone where the defender can't fade off him and Kuridrani can then drift out and back in on the pass.

I also think we over complicate everything, we don't need loads of block and slides etc... off every phase, we just need those basic skills nailed down, and people executing the 2v1 or 4vs2 correctly. How many strike moves do New Zealand run in open play very very few? Their tries are scored on low phases before the defence has settled, we just need to be using the ball better.

For me the key components in personnel is that the 12 needs better decision making, when to come to the line, when to pass and when to fade off that ball and allow the winger to slide behind.

I think Burrell could do that role, I Know Eastmond can, but 36 for me is way to indecisive at all these things. So I'm going to come back to the a name no one wants to hear and put his name in the hat again: Barritt.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I agree with everything said above, apart from Brown only being a counter attacker, he is a very very good full back who joins the line running off the 13 channel constantly. If I was the coach I would play
9.Care 10.Cipriani 11.Yarde 12.Burrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Ashton 15.Foden/Brown
21.Youngs 22.Farrell 23.May
Cipriani is such a threat with ball in hand that he will bring the ball too the line and Burrell/Tuilagi will almost certainly make breaks, Ashton feeds off this. If you play Foden that would help ashton as well, but I wouldn't be upset with having Foden on the wing with Brown fullback.