England's back line

[goodNumber10]

Wigglesworth was a pretty competent 10 for Sale.

On Strettle, i think he would be fine at international level if used correctly - i think the last time he was Brian Ashton was still in charge.

 

[Geordie]

Yeah im with you Good10...im inclined to think he never really got the rub of the green with regards to be being selected. But never mind.

Hopefully we can get two decent wingers from Wade, Yarde, Ashton, Nowell (though i think hes a FB), Watson...etc etc.

Mind i also think Lancasters current tactics etc doesnt give the wings much to work with anyway. Ashton is at his best running his lines off peoples shoulders and chasing the big forward carries...but he just isnt doing that at all under this regime...is it him not doing it...or has he been told not to do it.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Wigglesworth was a pretty competent 10 for Sale.

On Strettle, i think he would be fine at international level if used correctly - i think the last time he was Brian Ashton was still in charge.

Strettle went on tour to Argentina with Lancaster on the back of supposedly "good form" and made individual errors that screwed up three certain tries.

He's done similar for England before.

Strettle was one of England's best counter attacking wingers when he was at Harlequins... but that was years ago.
The correlation between the increase in quality and dominance of Saracens as a team and Strettle's try scoring record is very, very clear.
I think you'd be very hard pressed to suggest that it's Strettle dragging them up, rather than the other way around.

 

[goodNumber10]

Strettle went on tour to Argentina with Lancaster on the back of supposedly "good form" and made individual errors that screwed up three certain tries.

He's done similar for England before.

Maybe, I'd need to go back and watch them again, but lots of players make mistakes, especially if they haven't' been consistently picked and are suddenly brought into a set up they are unfamiliar with.

I don't recall him serving up particularly error strewn performances on his other caps.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Lots of other young players went on the same tour and killed it - Wade and Yarde for example.

Whilst Strettle and May didn't really impress.

I also think Lancaster is right not to pick players his age, because he's trying to avoid the issue that has plagued us over the alst two RWC's where we have a big clearout of guys.
He's trying to build a strong team where the transition between generations is as seamless as possible.

Wade looked a little bit bigger to me... anyone else think so?

 

[goodNumber10]

Lots of other young players went on the same tour and killed it - Wade and Yarde for example.

Whilst Strettle and May didn't really impress.

I also think Lancaster is right not to pick players his age, because he's trying to avoid the issue that has plagued us over the alst two RWC's where we have a big clearout of guys.
He's trying to build a strong team where the transition between generations is as seamless as possible.

Wade looked a little bit bigger to me... anyone else think so?

he looked huge, i noticed that as well.

I hear you on the strettle thing but i don't' think he'd be bad.

 

[Peat]

He's capped so many young guys that I wouldn't object to him bringing in a few 31 year olds now if that's what makes us better. We're not going to have a succession problem.

But I am very much of Saffycen's opinion and Rats' memory. Strettle has had a lot of opportunities under Lancaster, and he's blown them. He doesn't have the competencies of a conservative winger, he doesn't have the attacking skills to compensate, and his last game against Argentina was genuinely heavily error strewn. If an injury crisis strikes, I can think of worse guys. Tbh, despite my earlier criticism of him, I suspect our current best wing comb is Yarde and Nowell - Yarde's the most dangerous, Nowell's the safest.

I'd rather see Strettle than Ashton though until such time as Lancaster deigns to play to his strengths.

 

[goodNumber10]

He's capped so many young guys that I wouldn't object to him bringing in a few 31 year olds now if that's what makes us better. We're not going to have a succession problem.

But I am very much of Saffycen's opinion and Rats' memory. Strettle has had a lot of opportunities under Lancaster, and he's blown them. He doesn't have the competencies of a conservative winger, he doesn't have the attacking skills to compensate, and his last game against Argentina was genuinely heavily error strewn. If an injury crisis strikes, I can think of worse guys. Tbh, despite my earlier criticism of him, I suspect our current best wing comb is Yarde and Nowell - Yarde's the most dangerous, Nowell's the safest.

I'd rather see Strettle than Ashton though until such time as Lancaster deigns to play to his strengths.

He's had 6 caps under Lancaster iirc, 4 in the first year, and two in argentina (?).

I don't really know what it is that people think he's done, he's a great attacker but you have to give him the platform (as we see with Sarries). I'll have to go back and check the Argentina games but i don't recall him being totally awful.

 

[ratsapprentice]

He straight up dropped the ball in space for three certain tries - they weren't bad passes either.
I'm not sure what it is people think he is doing so right other that being on the receiving end of good coaching in a dominant team.

Swap him and Wade, Yarde, Sharples, May or any other number of English wingers and you really think he's going to be scoring anywhere near as many tries as he does?
His history in the league clearly demonstrates he wouldn't - unless you think he, as an individual, has suddenly (at the age of 29) improved so much as to explain the roughly three-fold improvement in his career season try average since 2012?

 

[goodNumber10]

he's 31. ****edit: sorry misunderstood the age ting****

No i think he's playing in a good team that utilises his skills and is playing well because of that, kind of liek Mark Cueto in his pomp.....

But I think you're all misunderstanding what i'm saying , i haven't said he should be recalled or anything i'm just saying i don't think he's as bad as people are making out. i wouldn't be super worried if he ended up playing for England through whatever reasons.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Any discussion of Strettle in this thread is about him being recalled/in the context of England.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Even If I rated Strettle a tiny bit, I could never forgive him for not finishing that try against Wales in 2012.
This is my absolute (and yes slightly irrational) pet hate; players who **** you off massively at premiership level e.g Sarracens irritating 'wolf pack' thing, but then do absolutely **** all at international level.

 

[TheSaffycen]

The thing is that when it comes too making the platform I don't think that we could. Saracens rely on having a bigger pack than alot of teams, England don't have that luxury when we play Argentina, South Africa, Italy, France and even Wales. The platform we give the backs isn't completely dominant front fooot ball so you have to rely on strike runners, from 13/15, who can get over the line, we can't create over laps like Sarries do for Strettle and Ashton, otherwise we could just select Sharples/Strettle/Wade/May real speed merchants.

Even If I rated Strettle a tiny bit, I could never forgive him for not finishing that try against Wales in 2012.
This is my absolute (and yes slightly irrational) pet hate; players who **** you off massively at premiership level e.g Sarracens irritating 'wolf pack' thing, but then do absolutely **** all at international level.

When have Saracens wolf pack not delivered ? Players like Farrell, Barritt, Vunipola haven't really delivered ? It's wierd because our big thing is our pack but England don't select from our forwards but our backs that beyond 10 aren't anything special. Ashton and Goode aren't part of thew.wo...wolf pack (yes I know it sounds stupid). Farrell and Barritt have done well for England, and when Goode was being used as the second reciever he looked okay then. England's Saracens contingent might not be outstanding but they have stood up when it matters.

 

[goodNumber10]

Any discussion of Strettle in this thread is about him being recalled/in the context of England.

Yes but conversations can occasionally go off topic.

Besides I've said I think he'd be fine if by some miracle he was recalled. I'm just not saying he should be recalled over other people.

OK?

 

[Peat]

Difficult to select Sarries forwards for England. Borthwick is a proven "Great at club level, poor at international" man. Botha technically not up to it. Mako's scrummaging is suspect. Stevens retired, and thank gods too. Fraser's permanently broken. Kruis and George haven't received enough game time to make their point. That leaves Bill, who's delivered. I don't think I've missed anyone, except maybe Jackson Wray, who's been included in England squads he shouldn't have been in.

I've been itching to make this point for a while, so I'm going to go and make it while it's semi-related; Sarries have a squad bursting full of 8/10 domestic players, which allows them to steamroll most domestic opposition. When forced to play at a higher level (i.e. play-offs, European rugby, internationals) the majority of the squad will hang in there and not disgrace themselves but there are very few individuals in that collective who are at that 9/10 or 10/10 stage where they break a tight game/have the all round game to shine at international level. It's why Saracens are struggling to actually win anything and it's why the majority of Saracens players attract irritation when in the England squad. If I was Mark McCall, I'd be making a conscious effort to go sign a few really top class players to break games for them and promote youngsters who may have that quality quickly i.e. Itoje, Earle, Tompkins. Given that Kruis has all the makings of a fantastic mobile lock and is still spending lots of time on the bench, I shall not be holding my breath.

Thankfully I think Lancaster has realised this, as he did have the same approach...

 

[TheSaffycen]

I'm sorry too say but.... Rats made this point last year. And it is a very valid point that i agree with, the only really world class player is probably Brits, and figallo if he gets back too fitness. George was quite good against Wasps, Fraser and Kruis were brilliant. I feel that if we did an England team on just pure talent i don't think we would have one, apart from Farrell. Itoje, Earle, Wilson could all become 9/10's but I can see why McCall wants too use prove players over them as he is expected too win things.

 

[Wendigo7]

Farrell is a decent fly half and nothing more.

Select a player on his basic skills for his position, not secondaries however good he may be in defence.

England's world class players are Launch, Lawes, Corbs, Cole, Care (Scrummies are sparse around the world atm and with Smith he's one of the best).. maybe Brown for form over the last year but I'd be clutching at straws. Yarde with the potential to be. Still most world cup winning teams in general, not just us, haven't needed to be world class in every position plus depth, 2007 great case in point. You need 4 or 5 world class players and a team to mould around them.

I still think we will top the group and I've thought it for about a year and a half or so now, but I still think he's greatly misunderstanding how to use his 10-12-13 axis to any great effect and it's making matches we could win comfortably into tight ****ly affairs we could possibly lose.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I would rate Farrell at higher than a decent fly half.
Fly half is a position which mental toughness is nearly as important as technical ability. When we beat Australia 20-13 Farrell grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck and actually won us the game. He started off poorly and then came out and was fantastic, and that's why I feel he is the best we have. Now last year was a poor environment but i think that Burns is mentally weak, and i would not be suprised if he missed a couple of easy kicks and then just crumbled. Ford was good until the buisness end of the season so i have a couple of question marks over him. Cipriani I feel is in a similar boat but would like too see him have some game time.

 

[goodNumber10]

Select a player on his basic skills for his position, not secondaries however good he may be in defence.

Defence is relativley basic and important skill, especially at elite level.

the 10 role has changed a lot over the last two decades, decision making has been distributed between 9-10-12, so the traditional running agame isn't quite so important - it helps but it's not their absolute primary role.

England's world class players are Launch, Lawes, Corbs, Cole, Care (Scrummies are sparse around the world atm and with Smith he's one of the best).. maybe Brown for form over the last year but I'd be clutching at straws. Yarde with the potential to be. Still most world cup winning teams in general, not just us, haven't needed to be world class in every position plus depth, 2007 great case in point. You need 4 or 5 world class players and a team to mould around them.

I still think we will top the group and I've thought it for about a year and a half or so now, but I still think he's greatly misunderstanding how to use his 10-12-13 axis to any great effect and it's making matches we could win comfortably into tight ****ly affairs we could possibly lose.

Tuilagi, Billy Vunipolo, Ben Morgan (watch that first test again) and Robshaw (watch the summer tour) are all world class.

 

[Big Ewis]

I would rate Farrell at higher than a decent fly half.
Fly half is a position which mental toughness is nearly as important as technical ability. When we beat Australia 20-13 Farrell grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck and actually won us the game. He started off poorly and then came out and was fantastic, and that's why I feel he is the best we have. Now last year was a poor environment but i think that Burns is mentally weak, and i would not be suprised if he missed a couple of easy kicks and then just crumbled. Ford was good until the buisness end of the season so i have a couple of question marks over him. Cipriani I feel is in a similar boat but would like too see him have some game time.

yeah, notably by utilizing an illegal screen from a teammate and going in for the "try" but I agree he's overlooked. He's still very young, ppl forget that given how much we've seen him in the past 3 years. His game is much more stable than a, say, Jules Plisson who's also from 1991. The latter gets away with his inconsistency and constant errors because ppl say "oh he's still young", which is true btw, it's a valid point to make. But Farrell has been *the* England no.10 and hasn't really had any competition there; which also means England isn't very deep at that position; but being the England no.10, specifically for England, is one tall task, and for such a youngster I think he's been remarkable. He's toned all the way down with his temperament tendencies, he's a pretty good tactical kicker, test level good at aiming for the posts, seems mentally tough, and then whether he attacks the line is really an English topic more than it is his own. He's also very big for a 10, is strong defensively and can even contest in the rucks.
For a 22/23 yo kid, to be part of a side that's been pretty good for this whole in-between RWC period, leads the Saracens attack one of the best clubs in Europe, that's pretty damn good. I think he's not as well marketed and manufactured as a Jonny Sexton who's older, more experienced and has been on ppl's screens long enough, and of course is better. He's also not as attractive as a Cruden or a Foley, and again still very young so hasn't built that reputation yet like the Steyns of the world.
There is more underrated though, Nicolas Sanchez. But Farrell should be in the conversations more imo.