England's back line

[Patchey]

Barritt has his merits and I really like him as a player but I don't want to see him in the England 12 jersey unless he starts distributing. I'd rather have Eastmond or an inconsistent Twelvetrees than Barritt tbh.

The futures looks bright at 12, Slade and Hill and Exeter, Sloan at Quins coupled with the fact that Eastmond and Twelvetrees are still young and have a lot of development to do makes me positive. However whether we'll have found the right combination of inside centres to have in the EPS bu 2015, I'm not so sure. For now I'd stick with Eastmond and 36 starting, with Burrell in the squad as a general centre and look at Premiership form to call up a younger guy mainly to get them involved in the squad around the AIs.

 

[ratsapprentice]

If Hill can be as physically strong in the tackle at senior level as he was in the u20's and add some solid kicking and distribution skills then he's in with a decent chance in a couple of years.
I have a feeling (touch wood) that he's also going to be virtually indestructible.

 

[Patchey]

Did you see his try last weekend? Smashed Molenaar and ripped the ball before he'd hit the ground then sprinted through. It made me wince to watch it. He is a strong lad.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Barritt has his merits and I really like him as a player but I don't want to see him in the England 12 jersey unless he starts distributing. I'd rather have Eastmond or an inconsistent Twelvetrees than Barritt tbh.

The futures looks bright at 12, Slade and Hill and Exeter, Sloan at Quins coupled with the fact that Eastmond and Twelvetrees are still young and have a lot of development to do makes me positive. However whether we'll have found the right combination of inside centres to have in the EPS bu 2015, I'm not so sure. For now I'd stick with Eastmond and 36 starting, with Burrell in the squad as a general centre and look at Premiership form to call up a younger guy mainly to get them involved in the squad around the AIs.

I would want Eastmond instead of Barritt, give him a few games and see how he grows into the shirt. I wouldn't agree on an inconsistent Twelvetree's though, because all you bring then is poor passing withotu the great defensive play. The upside to a player like Barritt is that i bet he could do a good job with very short notice, i'd have him in the world cup squad just because if any centre went down injured 2 days before a game I would be happy too put Barritt in there over many other players.

 

[Peat]

Where's Ryan Mills now? Shame he kept getting broken. Interesting 2nd 5/8th.

I still think Devoto is probably the future. But then I used to think the same of Twelvetrees. But one of these giant 12s has gotta make it. Maybe Mallinder's kid... I am pretty sure I want a distributing 12. You can't use the whole width of the field, you get a traffic jam in midfield, and I don't care how strong your backs are, when the opposition know that's coming, it's not going to work unless your pack is on top. I see no reason to pick a tactic that only works if the pack is on top if you can avoid it.

If you're gonna use two bash centres, then you pretty much need a running 10 imo, as it only works if the 10's getting plenty of attention. I feel fairly safe in saying we should not expect that any time soon.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Where's Ryan Mills now? Shame he kept getting broken. Interesting 2nd 5/8th.

Worcester.
Thought he played very well for Gloucester last season, but it was after he'd already agreed the move to Wuss by then.

I think the 12 shirt should(/will) belong to Devoto before long. He played so so well last year, as good as any centre I've seen in the premiership in a good while, and they were his first senior rugby games.
I hope he keeps getting game time for Bath - big ask with Eastmond/Joseph/Burgess, but he needs it because he's going to be some player.

 

[goodNumber10]

there isn't much point having a distributing 12 and amazing strike runners if the backline drifts and they are hitting traffic.

12's first job at this level has to be to fix the drift and Barritt does that.

To have a 12 that fixes the line and is an average distributor is better than a passer who drifts.

I'd like to see Burrell given a go at 12, Eastmond i'm still undecided about, but purely for attack he's got to be there or there about.... but Barritt is a good target man, and can pass well on the gain line.Which leads me back to why i think we'll see him back in the starting line up this season.

 

[Peat]

I really can't see how you think Lancaster will put Barritt back in. It's, what, three windows since he last played for England? In which time we've played three different guys who can play 12 ahead of him, always with a playmaker at 12. That seems a pretty clear preference to me.

 

[goodNumber10]

he was injured for at least two of them (he only came back from injury a couple of weeks before the 6nations after 5 months out. The only one he missed out on straight selection was New Zealand, and i think that was a lot to do with seeing how people responded to test match rugby.

 

[Peat]

he was injured for at least two of them (he only came back from injury a couple of weeks before the 6nations after 5 months out. The only one he missed out on straight selection was New Zealand, and i think that was a lot to do with seeing how people responded to test match rugby.

Twelvetrees was chucked straight back into international rugby following his injury. There's other cases of Lancaster bringing back players with insane haste post-injury (paging Tom Croft...). As such, I don't think a window of two weeks back fit prior to the Six Nations counts as injured.

Plus, I'm not sure what was stopping him from picking a big line-straightening back rather than a second playmaker if that's what he wanted when Barritt was injured.

Mindyou, on the plus side of your argument, there's a strange affection for overrated Sarries in the England camp atm

 

[TheSaffycen]

I think he really wanted to test out players in new environments. He hasn't played Twelvetrees that much so wanted to see what he was like in a high pressure situation, what would be the point in putting Barritt there when he knows what he will be like. Barritt is the 6.5-7/10 guy who you can rely on to do a job. Twelvetrees needs a long run of games it seems too produce the results.

 

[goodNumber10]

Plus, I'm not sure what was stopping him from picking a big line-straightening back rather than a second playmaker if that's what he wanted when Barritt was injured.

I never said that's what he wanted, i said that was what was needed. I think they will realise that.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well what I've seen of Devoto is pretty good but that was against a weakened Argentina. Burrell has proven himself to be more than capable in an England shirt even when playing at 13. Ultimately he has also proven himself to be a threat and I don't see how a Burrell/Tuilagi centre would not worry any team. Tuilagi provides the sheet power whilst Burrell has better support play whilst still being pretty powerful himself. They could both fix a defence and stop a drift which could finally free up our wingers. I'd stake what little reputation I have here on a Burrell, Tuilagi, Yarde, Wade, Brown backline being able to do a lot of damage. Get on on form Care in there and the only real issue is 10. Farrell is solid but not creative whilst someone like Cipriani could deliver that. I think the best back line ofr attacking prowess we could deliver would be, all on form:

9 Care
10 Cipriani
11 Yarde
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi
14 Wade
15 Brown

 

[Peat]

I never said that's what he wanted, i said that was what was needed. I think they will realise that.

Well, that is a different kettle of fish, although Lancaster's record for quick change doesn't exactly encourage your prediction either. Even if you're right that Lancaster will see this as the problem and look to change it, I suspect he'd just ask Burrell or Twelvetrees to fix the drift instead.

I'm not sure what you even mean by good target man tbh.

 

[goodNumber10]

target man = gets to/over the gain line and gives his forwards a target to come onto.

Straightening and then playing close to the gain line is what is needed more than anything, I said earlier, i think Burrell can do it - it's just if he sees him as a 12 (he did run him there 2nd half of the last test to be fair), 36 i don't think can do it as he just hits it up, he only distributes deep.

Eastmond is the attacking ideal as he works on the line, has excellent decision making and has the footwork to set up targets - he is a great player in the zone - the issue with KE is are they going to see past that defensive performance.

I think the two best options right now are Burrell & Barritt, neither are traditonal distributors but both can when they have to. (Barritt played super rugby for the sharks and was a pretty decent 10 for them)

 

[Peat]

With you. Barritt usually does make the gainline in fairness but not much further - for my money, and the stats' money such as they are. I would prefer a more powerful runner in that sense.

It's not really an England thing. You'll see the forwards do it, Farrell does it from time to time, the scrum-halves do it less than they do... we might do it from set-pieces, but it rarely seems to happen as a general thing. We seem determined to pass a good way before the gainline or charge hard and consider an offload if possible. Which leads me to believe it's not a big coaching priority, which leads me to believe that a) it will not be recognised as an area of selection priority b) There's a pretty good chance that Twelvetrees can do it if actually asked.

Eastmond would be the attacking ideal if he was 3 inches taller and 3 stones heavier but yes.

Barritt's spell as a 10 is now about as relevant to the debate as Will Greenwood. If he wants to rediscover those skills, great, but given how little they've been seen in his days here in England, I have to discount them.

The main effect of this post is to make me reconsider my opposition to Farrell at 12.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I can't believe we are talking about barritt! Burrell is a powerful yet skilful centre.
12trees is great and awful at the same time.
Devoto, hill and slade are all young.

And then average barritt, who doesn't make metres, or pass well or crash well.

All he is, is a back row playing 12. I think Haskell would be a better 12 then barritt!

 

[goodNumber10]

I can't believe we are talking about barritt! Burrell is a powerful yet skilful centre.
12trees is great and awful at the same time.
Devoto, hill and slade are all young.

And then average barritt, who doesn't make metres, or pass well or crash well.

All he is, is a back row playing 12. I think Haskell would be a better 12 then barritt!

ok, you don't rate him that's fine. But he is an England qualified 12, in and around the elite player squad, so is relevant to the discussion.

The point I'm trying to make with Barritt is that attacking rugby is easier going forward. You can't play off sideways moving ball which is what England have been doing, they are creating chances and Barritts decision making is better than 36 & Burrell. I honestly think we'd have scored a couple of the trys that we left hanging if Barritt or Burrell had been playing 12 in the second test.

36's first instinct is to look to distribute, so the defence knows this and drifts and so 36 ends up going on his own. Barritt brings it to the line first, so the defence holds, that actually opens the game up more than having a passing 12 like 36. the best distributing 12's have always been guys who come right up looking to beat a defender first and foremost - Mauger for example, is possibly the best 12 i've seen in the last decade and he came right to the line and passed late. Will Greenwood a great passing centre but his first instinct was to come to the line and have a go first.

Now Burrell can do that as well, but he's untested at 12 at this level - so i'd like to see him given a go.

But Barritt for me has never once had a bad game for England, and his core basics are better than any other centre in the current Elite squad bar maybe Eastmond. I personally think the 36 experiment is over, until the guy is playing regularly in a decent team he shouldn't be reconsidered. Devoto, Hill and Slade are all good players but not for this cycle, unless one of them seriously tears up the next 3/4 months then i don't see them forcing their way in. we need to see some consistent form from all of them and to see Devoto and Slade nail down positions rather than drifting from 10-12 or 12-13, and Do we think Devoto is going to be playing regular 12 once Burgess lands?


anyway, you don't need to agree with me, it's just an opinion.

 

[Patchey]

I think if we've going to use Barritt we will have to pair him with a ten who has a better running and passing game (anyone but Farrell or Myler basically). i know Farrell and Barritt work well at club level but they don't cut the mustard at international level. Burns or Ford with Barritt outside them would be a very interesting prospect.

For me the dream is to have someone tested all the realistic options out by the end of the 2015 6N so we can go into the World Cup warm up games more settled. There are four Autumn internationals and five Six Nations games. Realistically, and if everyone is fit, we're going to see a combo of 12. Twelvetress/Eastmond, 13. Manu for three of the AIs (NZ, Aus and SA) and at least three 6N games (Ireland, Wales, France). That leaves us three games to see Burrell at 12, try Barritt again (with a different 10 if possible), maybe give a young guy liver Devotto a try if he's been playing well in the Premiership and give one Twelvetress or Eastmond a bit more time. Not entirely impossible but a big ask.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Well what I've seen of Devoto is pretty good but that was against a weakened Argentina. Burrell has proven himself to be more than capable in an England shirt even when playing at 13. Ultimately he has also proven himself to be a threat and I don't see how a Burrell/Tuilagi centre would not worry any team. Tuilagi provides the sheet power whilst Burrell has better support play whilst still being pretty powerful himself. They could both fix a defence and stop a drift which could finally free up our wingers. I'd stake what little reputation I have here on a Burrell, Tuilagi, Yarde, Wade, Brown backline being able to do a lot of damage. Get on on form Care in there and the only real issue is 10. Farrell is solid but not creative whilst someone like Cipriani could deliver that. I think the best back line ofr attacking prowess we could deliver would be, all on form:

9 Care
10 Cipriani
11 Wade
12 Burrell
13 Tuilagi
14 Wade
15 Brown

You're right that would scare any team, I know i'd be scared if two clones were playing on the wings

I think if we've going to use Barritt we will have to pair him with a ten who has a better running and passing game (anyone but Farrell or Myler basically). i know Farrell and Barritt work well at club level but they don't cut the mustard at international level. Burns or Ford with Barritt outside them would be a very interesting prospect.

For me the dream is to have someone tested all the realistic options out by the end of the 2015 6N so we can go into the World Cup warm up games more settled. There are four Autumn internationals and five Six Nations games. Realistically, and if everyone is fit, we're going to see a combo of 12. Twelvetress/Eastmond, 13. Manu for three of the AIs (NZ, Aus and SA) and at least three 6N games (Ireland, Wales, France). That leaves us three games to see Burrell at 12, try Barritt again (with a different 10 if possible), maybe give a young guy liver Devotto a try if he's been playing well in the Premiership and give one Twelvetress or Eastmond a bit more time. Not entirely impossible but a big ask.

When England played the crusaders Barritt looked a different player with Cipriani inside him, i've said it before that he is a really good player with a fast 10 inside him. You will see Barritt have some lovely touches in nearly every game he plays. Take the wasps game when he and Ashton did the wrap around in the middle of the park, but Barritt wont get the recognition because he isn't a 'sexy' player. At the end of the day I think that our 4 centres (the number i would gues in the RWC squad) should be Tuilagi, Burrell, Barritt, Eastmond. For me Tuilagi and Barritt might be a bit obvious in what they will do but at least it has worked in the past. Burrell can play 12/13 and Eastmond can as well, you could even have Farrell as 12 and bring Burns, Ford and Cipriani too the world cup and see how he goes now at 12. last time we had Farrell at 12 he was still very defence minded and sat far too deep, his attacking game has now improved immensley and he adds a goal kicking option for Burns/Cipriani if needed.