England World Cup Squad

[Saintjay]

Interesting the comments are it's 'his' actions that ruined lives. By the sounds of it the other partners involved were consensual. Who evers girlfriend, partner, wife had a chance to sleep with him and they took it. That's a reflection on them as much as him. He's not the only one who's created the trust issue in someone's relationship.

 

[Becca]

Interesting the comments are it's 'his' actions that ruined lives. By the sounds of it the other partners involved were consensual. Who evers girlfriend, partner, wife had a chance to sleep with him and they took it. That's a reflection on them as much as him. He's not the only one who's created the trust issue in someone's relationship.

As a female, I agree with that.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Looks like Billy found his passport,
Lawes being too "sore" to walk on stage and take a photo is a concern though

I'm a scruffy bugger myself, but those suits are not a good look. It matters.

Anecdote follows in place of proper science:

When I was playing at U16 level, we generally turned out in plain Navy blue jerseys. One day, for whatever reason, we got the First XV jerseys, club badge, hoops, numbers, the lot. That day, we beat our biggest rivals (they generally turned up driving their own cars, at both under 15 and U16 level...)

There's no way that they can be feeling proud looking like a bunch of tatty *****.

 

[HamJan]

I'm a scruffy bugger myself, but those suits are not a good look. It matters.

Anecdote follows in place of proper science:

When I was playing at U16 level, we generally turned out in plain Navy blue jerseys. One day, for whatever reason, we got the First XV jerseys, club badge, hoops, numbers, the lot. That day, we beat our biggest rivals (they generally turned up driving their own cars, at both under 15 and U16 level...)

There's no way that they can be feeling proud looking like a bunch of tatty *****.

Fair comment but have you seen the Irish suits?

 

[BrokenWing]

They're no Spice Boys suits mind.

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

Reflecting on the bit of clickbait from Cipriani;

* He slates Lancaster, Farrell snr & Catt. All have gone on to coach successful & happy teams.
* There seems to be no acknowledgment that he may have played a part in his non-selection. This appears (at least to me) as a little one eyed.
*His personal life seems less than ideal at the same time. Coaches worry about team chemistry and cohesion. Having someone who rides anything with a pulse isn't conducive to a happy camp, irrespective of their level of skill.

 

[TommiG88]

Reflecting on the bit of clickbait from Cipriani;

* He slates Lancaster, Farrell snr & Catt. All have gone on to coach successful & happy teams.
* There seems to be no acknowledgment that he may have played a part in his non-selection. This appears (at least to me) as a little one eyed.
*His personal life seems less than ideal at the same time. Coaches worry about team chemistry and cohesion. Having someone who rides anything with a pulse isn't conducive to a happy camp, irrespective of their level of skill.

Your last point is an assumption through your view. I have many mates, male and female that will ride anything with a pulse and yet still some of the best people I know. How does that affect a team environment in anyway?

I'm looking forward to his book, as the media like to paint people in a way that seems to fit their narrative, so it will be nice to see it from the other side

 

[Jimbo]

Underperforming is very subjective so hard to put into a contract. Would need to have clear criteria for what underperforming means and that makes it harder to invoke as you then have to hit all of them.

Aye to some extend, KPIs should have at some point been defined, I mean if getting drubbed at twickenham by France in 6 Nations loosing to a T2 nation (be it they are very good) and continuing on an downwards spiral with aimless isn't under performing I am not sure what is.

 

[ShropshireAllBlack]

Your last point is an assumption through your view. I have many mates, male and female that will ride anything with a pulse and yet still some of the best people I know. How does that affect a team environment in anyway?

I'm looking forward to his book, as the media like to paint people in a way that seems to fit their narrative, so it will be nice to see it from the other side

I'll accept your feedback on my 3rd point. Organisations that depend on cohesion (such as the military) generally take a dim view of immorality and consider it corrosive to morale.
You didn't address my other points, so it's reasonable to assume that you agree with them? If so, it still seems that Cipriani's version of the truth may vary with those of his teammates….

Edited because I saw a spelling mistake.

 

[Zed]

TBH he sounds like a complete arsehole there and that's by his own admission, so he was probably even worse. Everywhere he has been he left a bad stench. Sure he was skilled but if you rub everyone up the wrong way then you're going to cause problems for yourself. I'm no rugby professional but I find his disdain for the training of getting up off the floor again weird, it's a common metric the world over and the current England performances show how bad it is when people are slow to get back on their feet and in position.

You have to be a special kind of prick to be trying to sleep with multiple women a night, particularly targeting ones already in relationships.

A wasted talent. I remember the try he scored for The Rebels, probably one of the best tries I've seen from a 10. Then I think he went out and celebrated, stole a bottle of vodka from a bar, got kicked out and made the news.....

 

[Zed]

 

[Becca]

A wasted ( no pun intended ) talent

 

[TommiG88]

I'll accept your feedback on my 3rd point. Organisations that depend on cohesion (such as the military) generally take a dim view of immorality and consider it corrosive to morale.
You didn't address my other points, so it's reasonable to assume that you agree with them? If so, it still seems that Cipriani's version of the truth may vary with those of his teammates….

Edited because I saw a spelling mistake.

Yes, I agree in part with part 1, but at the time they were young coaches and I think they have probably learnt from their days with England.

Agree with your second point entirely.

 

[Which Tyler]

Aye to some extend, KPIs should have at some point been defined, I mean if getting drubbed at twickenham by France in 6 Nations loosing to a T2 nation (be it they are very good) and continuing on an downwards spiral with aimless isn't under performing I am not sure what is.

<50% win ratio for 2 consecutive calendar years / 20 matches should be a pretty low bar to pass for an England Head Coach, and should be a long enough time frame to allow for unforseen factors like injuries and cards to filter through and out the far side.
Under that criteria, only Eddie Jones would have failed since the Dick Greenwood in the mid-1980s. That criteria would have seen Eddie fired when he was.

<40% win ratio for 1 calendar year / 10 matches should also be a pretty low bar for an England Head Coach, though a little more susceptible to unforeseen factors.
Under that criteria, Andy Robinson would have been fired when he was, SCW would have been fired when he was and Martin Green (1987) would have been fired when he was. Borthwick may well be below that line if we go out in the pool stages.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

A lot of the England win ratio KPIs can be skewed by who we go on a summer tour to though.

A tour to Australia is a lot easier than a tour to either SA or NZ and overall we've had years when we play a tier 2 nation in the autumn that also pushes up our win ratio vs a harder team.

I agree on principle around some kpis for a coach because it sets expectations and I've found employees always perform better when they know what's expected.

 

[LIONSxv]

The only KPI's that matter is that we regressed badly under Jones. We have become worse under Borthwick

Very good players have become average
Average players have become terrible

Twickenham was just about half full Vs Fiji. The difference between a full Vs half full tickets in match day revenue/ tickets will be around 5 million

Unless we see a miracle at the WC, Borthwick and his staff will be moved on as 3 million compensation is loose change compared to fans staying away/not watching

 

[Which Tyler]

A lot of the England win ratio KPIs can be skewed by who we go on a summer tour to though.

A tour to Australia is a lot easier than a tour to either SA or NZ and overall we've had years when we play a tier 2 nation in the autumn that also pushes up our win ratio vs a harder team.

I agree on principle around some kpis for a coach because it sets expectations and I've found employees always perform better when they know what's expected.

Of course, although that's 3 out of 11 or 12 matches for the year; and 50% or 40% win ratios are very low requirements.
I also don't think anyone is suggesting that they're automatic firing offences, more a trigger should the RFU decide to use it.

Even with such low bars, 5 of the 8 head coaches we've had in the last 35 years wouldn't have triggered the option. Of the 3 who did trigger it, all were fired at that point.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

So what do people think the England team against Argentina is going to be? Based on the injury situation I would guess something like the following but who knows with Borthwick:
1. Genge
2. George
3. Stuart
4. Itoje
5. Chessum
6. L. Ludlam
7. J. Willis
8. B. Earl
9. B. Youngs
10. G. Ford
11. M. Malins
12. O. Lawrence
13. J. Marchant
14. J. May
15. F. Steward

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Pretty much the same - Lawes and Tuilagi will start, though. Not sure who will win out at 13 - I'd pick Marchant on current form, but wouldn't be surprised at Lawrence
Also feel like Sinckler is probably quite likely to start

My guess:
Genge, George, Stuart
Itoje, Chessum
Lawes, Willis, Earl
Youngs, Ford,
May, Tuilagi, Lawrence, Malins,
Steward

Walker, Marler, Sinckler, Ribbans, Ludlam, Mitchell, Smith, Marchant

Though if Daly and Curry are both fit and fully in contention that does make it harder to pick (Curry at #20, Daly at #11? #23?)

 

[Saintjay]

Reasons to be cheerful no losing RWC finalist has made it past the quaters four years later according to the Ruck pod.