England World Cup Squad

[Vieux Talonneur]

How do you explain England's lack of defense?

Wrong coach and crap attitude. Should all be made to watch Lawes try saving tackle against Tonga on a loop to remind them of the effort required.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Just read a Times article referring to Jones humiliating Radwan in front of the squad. Not ringing any bells with me, any ideas?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just read a Times article referring to Jones humiliating Radwan in front of the squad. Not ringing any bells with me, any ideas?

I remember stories about him doing that to Malins, but not heard anything about Radwan - wouldn't surprise me though

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I remember stories about him doing that to Malins, but not heard anything about Radwan - wouldn't surprise me though

The article referred to Malins as well. It was actually about Farrell with implied criticism that he should have stepped in and challenged Jones when he was being out of line with players. Saying he was more Jones lieutenant than a bridge between management and players.

Also made the point that while we think of 07 as player power (wasn't that exactly what Ashton was trying to encourage?), in 03 senior players went to Woodward saying they were overtraining and he listened.

It just can't be - shouldn't be - a dictatorial environment.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

With Jones Im not sure when things started to go wrong? I used to post a bit on the drunken wasps forum over on rugby network and many of them always hated Jones and felt vindicated when he started to go downhill - but he didn't become a bad coach overnight....or did he? Don't get me wrong it was about time he moved on but when it worked it worked well. Issues were always there of course with favouritism and those players being able to make the same mistakes without being dropped.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Tbh the deeply ironic thing is that the best thing for England right now would be either a quins prem winning team style abandonment of proper coaching, or 2016 era Jones...

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Why would that be the best thing for England?

Playing a game plan that won 1 ***le?

 

[BPM]

He's not talking about the game plan though?

As I read it, @Not Mike Brown's Sock is suggesting England adopt a similar approach in letting the players essentially run the show. For Quins' last ***le, the coaching was very informal and largely driven by what the players wanted/thought was best.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Maybe England's success was in-spite of Jones rather than because of him? Maybe he was never ever any good at anything other than short term turnarounds.

I've read and heard (some even first hand) about too many things he's done to believe the players liked him or he wasn't a horrid person and a poor man manager or motivator.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Maybe England's success was in-spite of Jones rather than because of him? Maybe he was never ever any good at anything other than short term turnarounds.

I've read and heard (some even first hand) about too many things he's done to believe the players liked him or he wasn't a horrid person and a poor man manager or motivator.

Maybe... But I just don't really think you can win back to back six nations and go on a run like that if your coach is deadweight and your team is pulling in the opposite direction - just makes no sense.

Also if memory serves there were some places speaking in defense of him when he was fired.

 

[Saintjay]

Maybe England's success was in-spite of Jones rather than because of him? Maybe he was never ever any good at anything other than short term turnarounds.

I've read and heard (some even first hand) about too many things he's done to believe the players liked him or he wasn't a horrid person and a poor man manager or motivator.

Not sure really if you listen to Brian Habana on the BBC. He seemed quite positive on Jones as a coach. It came across that when you stick him in front of the press, the pressure etc he goes a little wibble. Left to his own devices coaching players, tactics and things he is great. Dawson seemed less enthusiastic about him.

Would Japan have beaten SA without Jones or would England dominate the AB's in 2019 without him i don't know. Would Gats, Borthwick, Hansen achieved the same with those teams we'll never know. I think if you flipped the script and asked Jones to come in 9 games before an WRC you'd see different results with England.

Of course I'll now be proven wrong when Australia crash and burn spectacular in a month or so.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Would be interested to see the England player minutes v in the lead up to 2019?

Got to remember Saracens was breaking the cap and I think could afford to rest their players more often.

Bored waiting for a film to download, so:

2019 vs 2023 (doesn't include RWC or RWC warmups):
Dan Cole - 1913 vs 1148
Tom Curry - 1565 vs 1231
Ellis Genge - 943 vs 1208
Jamie George - 2136 vs 1256
Maro Itoje - 1719 vs 1823
Courtney Lawes - 1719 vs 163
Lewis Ludlam - 1710 vs 1492
Joe Marler - 1450 vs 1390
Kyle Sinckler - 1566 vs 1235
Billy Vunipola - 1453 vs 1703
Elliot Daly - 2273 vs 1186
Owen Farrell - 2130 vs 1977
George Ford - 1798 vs 711
Jonny May - 2054 vs 1422
Manu Tuilagi - 1677 vs 1326
Ben Youngs - 1444 vs 1111

So it's only really Billy, Maro (both benefiting from the depth Sarries had in the pack at the time) and Genge that played less minutes in the run up to the last RWC
Jamie George putting in a crazy shift at hooker for Saracens

 

[Which Tyler]

2 clubs going bust will have helped the 2023 minutes played

 

[TRF_Olyy]

2 clubs going bust will have helped the 2023 minutes played

Aging players = more injuries as well
Curry, Ford and Sinckler have all missed big chunks of the season - Farrell missed a month with his ban as well etc

Interesting to compare, though

 

[Becca]

Maybe... But I just don't really think you can win back to back six nations and go on a run like that if your coach is deadweight and your team is pulling in the opposite direction - just makes no sense.

Also if memory serves there were some places speaking in defense of him when he was fired.

Well I've heard that a player from that team said they all hated Jones….so ?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

A lot of the England players spoke up for jones initially but they soon changed their tune.

I'm sure he's not all bad but I've heard more bad than good from players etc

One thing was clear though, we stopped attacking rugby in 2019 and thre last 3 years have been dire rugby even when we have won.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

The attack was never the same after Wisemantel left. And then went downhill from there.

 

[LIONSxv]

A lot of the England players spoke up for jones initially but they soon changed their tune.

I'm sure he's not all bad but I've heard more bad than good from players etc

One thing was clear though, we stopped attacking rugby in 2019 and thre last 3 years have been dire rugby even when we have won.

The WC final really screwed Jones up. He tried to replicate Saffers game plan and personnel. Moving a lock at the time to six and opting for the high ball game with a focus on the scrum and lineout

The issue is that England is that our strength was mobile forwards, quick ruck and snaffling the oppositions ball.
Borthwick used similar tactics at Leicester and it worked well. The difference is that he can't pick Argues and Staffers for England

It all goes back to square pegs and picking players out of form.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I really don't see any tactics at all watching England play maybe other than kick the ball every third phase.

There's no plan to that rubbish.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Looks like Billy found his passport,
Lawes being too "sore" to walk on stage and take a photo is a concern though