England World Cup Squad

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Hopefully Borthwick sees sense and leaves him at home taking an actual decent in form 8.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Yeah that was my thinking, but a bit weird to have it now when the incident was a few weeks ago

Tackle school is just filming a tackling segment of standard training no? It's just a thing with your own coaches as far as I'm aware - no reason for that to mean he couldn't fly?

 

[BiggusLaddus]

Maybe he got detention?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Apparently they're based in a Holiday Inn, which feels suitably down market. Although it's a "Resort" so that probably means a 3m square swimming pool and massages with a choice of scented oils and whale music.

Borther's dream facilities though. "Right lads, study the flip chart and take notes, and if you're really good boys I'll bring out the PowerPoint and Excel after dinner".

 

[Ferrari333SP]

Eddie Jones: RFU to blame for England's poor form, says Australia head coach

 

[Ferrari333SP]

Rugby World Cup 2023: England remind Jason Robinson of 2007 finalists

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Eddie Jones: RFU to blame for England's poor form, says Australia head coach

"Bellend passes the buck"

The RFU are a part of it but so was he

 

[Everyday EggChaser]

RFU employed jones so it goes back to them.

 

[BiggusLaddus]

Then chose to extend his employment with an excessively long contract. Then chose to sack him too close to the RWC. Then chose to replace him with an inexperienced coach.

But Eddie still played a big part in creating the mess.

 

[Geordie]

Lets be honest...the RFU and its crusty nosed prawn sandwich eating members are outdated....and will not fix their part of the issue.

We need a cull and modern thinking people in charge of our home game.

But Eddie has played a big part in this mess also.

 

[BrokenWing]

Rugby World Cup 2023: England remind Jason Robinson of 2007 finalists

Inso much as they'll probably get pumped in the first game.

 

[BrokenWing]

"Bellend passes the buck"

The RFU are a part of it but so was he

At least someone's passing something.

Probably drop it.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Eddie Jones: RFU to blame for England's poor form, says Australia head coach

Element of truth in that. And he did say consistently that he didn't think the domestic game was preparing the talent for the international stage and I can't really disagree with that.

But the big but is that in the latter part of his tenure he clearly wasn't getting the best from the talent available and nor is Borthwick.

The talent coming through is uneven by position - looking at you, front row - but Chessum, T Willis, Mercer and Pearson all look to have the tools. Curry's still fairly young, Isiekwe will bounce back from his health issues, Chessum minor and some other big lads, not least Martin, are on the way. Arguably our 2 best scrummaging props didn't even make the squad. Warr possibly, JVP will come again, Smith and Arundell have untapped potential. Lawrence should solve half our centre problem and Steward will develop. Getting some of these guys into latter stages of European competition really will help.

I'm not sure sure whether it's my great hope or fear that the team is totally ripped up post RWC and we sacrifice a couple of years results. Leadership, on and off field, remains a massive issue.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

but Chessum, T Willis, Mercer and Pearson all look to have the tools. Curry's still fairly young

Curry's younger than Mercer and only a few months older than Willis and like 14months older than Pearson,
It's pretty crazy how much he accomplished when he basically could've still been playing age grades

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Curry's younger than Mercer and only a few months older than Willis and like 14months older than Pearson,
It's pretty crazy how much he accomplished when he basically could've still been playing age grades

Yep. Exception not the rule though.

Blooding youngsters is always difficult and regardless of talent is usually a more gradual process.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Element of truth in that. And he did say consistently that he didn't think the domestic game was preparing the talent for the international stage and I can't really disagree with that.

Jones is clearly wrong though; other countries seem to pick England-based players (or recently England-based players) with great success and Jones (and now Borthwick) have consistently picked some players (JvP, Steward, Martin, Curry T and B, Arundell, Dan for example) to play internationally with virtually no Premiership experience.

Of course the Premiership doesn't have the money to buy in the amount of players the French do, but Mercer at Gloucester will surely be the same bloke he was abroad. If he's winning player of the season awards in France and their league is so much better than ours, it would be consistent to build an England side around this paragon of back-row play, surely? But we get Binny.

It would be unreasonable to expect players to be as dominant in internationals as they are at club level, but they should still be able to pass, catch and tackle if they're worthy of an international place.

Obviously, there are structural problems with English rugby, but to blame the failure of the national team on the club structure is clear balderdash, used as a pretty flimsy figleaf by failing coaches.

(As I've typed, I've got crosser and crosser; it's interesting to see how much the ****-quotient has increased on this forum as England's season has developed.)

 

[Crash Hamster]

Also, I really liked JvP when he first came through (could probably find posts to show my enthusiasm) because he was quick, had a lovely flat pass and was a running threat round the breakdown, which kept defences honest.

He now seems to have become slower, loopier, little running threat and a bit of a kick-monster.

I'm not sure that's the Premiership, I'd suspect that it has much more to do with the coaches, whoever they have been [cough]

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Jones is clearly wrong though; other countries seem to pick England-based players (or recently England-based players) with great success and Jones (and now Borthwick) have consistently picked some players (JvP, Steward, Martin, Curry T and B, Arundell, Dan for example) to play internationally with virtually no Premiership experience.

Of course the Premiership doesn't have the money to buy in the amount of players the French do, but Mercer at Gloucester will surely be the same bloke he was abroad. If he's winning player of the season awards in France and their league is so much better than ours, it would be consistent to build an England side around this paragon of back-row play, surely? But we get Binny.

It would be unreasonable to expect players to be as dominant in internationals as they are at club level, but they should still be able to pass, catch and tackle if they're worthy of an international place.

Obviously, there are structural problems with English rugby, but to blame the failure of the national team on the club structure is clear balderdash, used as a pretty flimsy figleaf by failing coaches.

(As I've typed, I've got crosser and crosser; it's interesting to see how much the ****-quotient has increased on this forum as England's season has developed.)

Well, some of our clubs seem to regard defence as an optional extra. It's entertaining but not smart and if you're getting exposed at club level you'll get slaughtered internationally, while also finding it harder to score. For reasons partly out of their control they're not getting to the pointy end of Europe either and being exposed to that extra intensity could only be beneficial.

Of the players you name the likes of Arundell and Dan are pure potential plays. They might produce the odd eye catching cameo but neither's really close to rounded international (or frankly even club) level yet.

Mercer will be interesting. He was fantastic in France and omitting him was ridiculous, but let's see how he fares as the big name in a mid table team with big expectations now on him.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Just been rummaging through last year's league tables:
Points conceded per game (average)
France: 23.2
URC: 26.2
England: 26.3

In the last year, French defences conceded about a penalty less than either English or URC sides, who shipped the same amounts of points per game on average.

Glasgow and Edinburgh shipped an average of 24.2 points per game
Saracens and Tigers shipped an average of 25.1 points per game
Make that Saracens and Sale and it's 23.4 points per game
(Toulouse and La Rochelle are down at a miserly 18.3 points per game.)

Conclusions:

The French league has maybe 10% better defence than either the URC or Premiership and their top clubs are very difficult to score against
No difference overall between the URC and Premiership in points per game conceded
The top couple of Scottish clubs and the top two English clubs have similar defensive records, but Scotland are considerably better at International level.
Every league has at least one side whose defence is rubbish, but it averages out

I'm not sure that the argument that the URC is a better league than the Premiership, so both defence and attack are of a higher standard, holds water either.
5 of the last 16 in the European Champion's Cup were English
3 French
3 Irish
3 South African
1 Scottish
1 Welsh

In the QFs
3 English
2 French
2 South African
1 Irish

Semi-finals:
2 French
1 English
1 Irish

And obviously a French/Irish final.

I don't think this shows the English league is particularly weak, just not as good as the French league or Irish sides. I'm standing by "Obviously, there are structural problems with English rugby, but to blame the failure of the national team on the club structure is clear balderdash, used as a pretty flimsy figleaf by failing coaches."

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

The French league has maybe 10% better defence than either the URC or Premiership

Or worse attack?

Honestly unless the teams are playing each other in a league format, this is a mostly pointless statistical comparison.

Chile v Uraguay playing 3 times with an average score of 6-3 a game, doesnt mean they are better, have a better attack or defence than NZ v South africa averaging a score of 30-20.

It's entirely dependent on opposition, league competitiveness or anything else?