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England World Cup Squad

Looks like Billy found his passport,
Lawes being too "sore" to walk on stage and take a photo is a concern though

Yeah I read that they left him behind because he was too sore to sit for however long it was and then stand to have the photos etc. Sounds rather worrying.

Also just read an article saying there's no way the RFU can afford to sack Borthwick no matter how we do as it would cost over £3 million to dispense with his and the other coaches, services. It's money they don't have.
 
Yeah I read that they left him behind because he was too sore to sit for however long it was and then stand to have the photos etc. Sounds rather worrying.

Also just read an article saying there's no way the RFU can afford to sack Borthwick no matter how we do as it would cost over £3 million to dispense with his and the other coaches, services. It's money they don't have.
To be honest it's of little surprise, anyone would think under normal circumstances there would be a clause that if the team hugely underperform he goes his own way. with that said it would be unfair on him, he was never the man for the job especially at the time, playing a simple game plan at club level where you can buy the pieces and slot them in to execute a set plan is one thing, picking from a finite pool with limited options with certain calibre of specimens is another, ultimately until a coach comes in with a different attitude a long the lines of the type of players we have suite this rough game plan let's do this and try and get the defence and set piece as solid as possible, little will change and we will continue all having the same frustrations. The biggest irritation is the unwillingness to try much different, it's quite literally the definition of insanity.
 
Yeah I read that they left him behind because he was too sore to sit for however long it was and then stand to have the photos etc. Sounds rather worrying.

Also just read an article saying there's no way the RFU can afford to sack Borthwick no matter how we do as it would cost over £3 million to dispense with his and the other coaches, services. It's money they don't have.
RFU contract negotiations at their finest yet again. They don't ever learn.
 
Probably already mentioned here, but I read the the RFU can't fire Steve Borthwick because it would cost them $3 million to get rid of him and they can't afford it!? Surely if he's not performing they can sack him without having to pay out his contract? I'd assume if England play ****, Borthwick would do the right thing and fall on his sword?

To be honest, I wonder if the best thing for England (long term) is for them to have a disastrous world cup forcing the RFU to fix what's broken. Imagine if Borthwick did a 2007 job and got them through to the final. That would be worse than them getting knocked out at the pool stage.
 
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Probably already mentioned here, but I read the the RFU can't fire Steve Borthwick because it would cost them $3 million to get rid of him and they can't afford it!? Surely if he's not performing they can sack him without having to pay out his contract? I'd assume if England play ****, Borthwick would do the right thing and fall on his sword?

To be honest, I wonder if the best thing for England (long term) is for them to have a disastrous world cup forcing the RFU to fix what's broken. Imagine if Borthwick did a 2007 job and got them through to the final. That would be worse than them getting knocked out at the pool stage.
Normally sporting managerial contracts do not have break clauses like that.
 
Yeah I read that they left him behind because he was too sore to sit for however long it was and then stand to have the photos etc. Sounds rather worrying.

Also just read an article saying there's no way the RFU can afford to sack Borthwick no matter how we do as it would cost over £3 million to dispense with his and the other coaches, services. It's money they don't have.
Could be cover for we doing tests and he might have to withdraw soon.
 
Lots of people talking about 2007 and I'm not seeing the comparison apart from England being crap. For all the faults of the players in 2007 the pack was still functioning and was absolutely competitive compared to all the other sides apart from SA. The current England pack got out played by Fiji who, with all respect have never had a competitive pack. It was the same problem with Eddie's final games, for all the talk of new exciting back moves the pack wasn't on the same level as the top teams and it hasn't improved under Borthwick. Personally when this WC is a disaster, the RFU need to sit down with Borthwick and the premiership clubs and map out a long term way forward like they did in France. Eggchasers did a good video on this on YouTube. Got to stop putting sticking plasters on English rugby
 
Yeah I read that they left him behind because he was too sore to sit for however long it was and then stand to have the photos etc. Sounds rather worrying.

Also just read an article saying there's no way the RFU can afford to sack Borthwick no matter how we do as it would cost over £3 million to dispense with his and the other coaches, services. It's money they don't have.
They would of just lost close to 3 million on the Fiji game. The difference between a half full Twickenham and a full one is just over 3 million in lost tickets revenue alone. Then add in half full hospitality boxes, and then match day revenue it's well over 3 million
 
They would of just lost close to 3 million on the Fiji game. The difference between a half full Twickenham and a full one is just over 3 million in lost tickets revenue alone. Then add in half full hospitality boxes, and then match day revenue it's well over 3 million

Exactly. So much is dependent on the national team, we literally cannot afford for it to be unsuccessful.

That the over remunerated Sweeney has been conspicuous by his silence suggests all may not be well in the RFU bunker.

A 5 year contract for an unproven coach was always going to be a big gamble. That they didn't learn from Jones is beyond belief. Jones held them hostage, Borthwick will probably just end up proving expensive.

Used to love going to HQ, but seldom bother now. When you look at the financial realities it's hard to conclude it's anything other than a huge white elephant. Why football, rugby etc couldn't have got together and agreed on a single world beating national stadium beats me. Or even just taken games around the country. It's so seldom used for anything other than rugby.
 

Interesting, though obviously from DCs viewpoint and probably juiced up a bit to be a better story

I do remember that France game, though, and everyone going mad that they weren't bringing him on when we were playing so badly
 

Interesting, though obviously from DCs viewpoint and probably juiced up a bit to be a better story

I do remember that France game, though, and everyone going mad that they weren't bringing him on when we were playing so badly
TBH he sounds like a complete arsehole there and that's by his own admission, so he was probably even worse. Everywhere he has been he left a bad stench. Sure he was skilled but if you rub everyone up the wrong way then you're going to cause problems for yourself. I'm no rugby professional but I find his disdain for the training of getting up off the floor again weird, it's a common metric the world over and the current England performances show how bad it is when people are slow to get back on their feet and in position.

You have to be a special kind of prick to be trying to sleep with multiple women a night, particularly targeting ones already in relationships.
 
Where did that come from? Brilliant 😂

I think getting rid of Eddie when they did was a bad move. The timing was awful, but the external issues are the biggest problem.
 
To be honest it's of little surprise, anyone would think under normal circumstances there would be a clause that if the team hugely underperform he goes his own way. with that said it would be unfair on him, he was never the man for the job especially at the time, playing a simple game plan at club level where you can buy the pieces and slot them in to execute a set plan is one thing, picking from a finite pool with limited options with certain calibre of specimens is another, ultimately until a coach comes in with a different attitude a long the lines of the type of players we have suite this rough game plan let's do this and try and get the defence and set piece as solid as possible, little will change and we will continue all having the same frustrations. The biggest irritation is the unwillingness to try much different, it's quite literally the definition of insanity.
Underperforming is very subjective so hard to put into a contract. Would need to have clear criteria for what underperforming means and that makes it harder to invoke as you then have to hit all of them.
 

Interesting, though obviously from DCs viewpoint and probably juiced up a bit to be a better story

I do remember that France game, though, and everyone going mad that they weren't bringing him on when we were playing so badly
This highlights that not only is coaching a problem, but the players and 'leadership' group are at fault for the rot as well.
  • Players not getting dropped out of form, likely in part due to lobbying from faz and co.
  • Faz and co came out to bat for Jones to keep him.
  • Ford and such coming out for faz after the red card
I think something we underapreciate here is that the senior players have more power than we think and are part of the reason dross is kept and players who's face doesnt fit dont get picked.

As sad as it is, what english rugby is probably a group stage exit and. a subsequent proper clearout, even if those in a leadership group are still playing well they need to be gone, the whole thing is rotten, RFU board, coaching, senior player base. Need to get back to players who dont feel entitelment to be there.
 
You have to be a special kind of prick to be trying to sleep with multiple women a night, particularly targeting ones already in relationships.
I mean, he admits it was a problem, and a result of mental health issues he was going through, comparing it to alcohol etc... I mean he he even says When sex is one of the few things in your life that provides relief, and only went after taken women because he felt everyone else would sell him out.

Not sure you can hold it agaisnt someone when they admit it was a problem and a result of major mental health issues and he subsequently realised his life was a mess and changed for the better.

I mean you can not like the man, he was a bit of a tool, but holding something like that against him with the context of why it was happening feels odd. Plenty have demons, plenty have done things we wouldnt be proud of, takes a lot of strength to look yourself in the mirror and recognise it and do something about it.
 
I agree it took courage, but you can hold it against him as it was his actions. He's probably ruined a few lives as a result.
 
I agree it took courage, but you can hold it against him as it was his actions. He's probably ruined a few lives as a result.
He even said he went after those people because they wouldnt say anything. So wether anyone elses life was ruined is unknown.

Not an exact comparision, but alcoholics ruin peoples lives but we dont blame them when they get clean, especially when they show remorse, a lot of people dont intend to hurt people and make horrible life choices. If you are sick it is sad that you hurt those around you, but holding those actions agaisnt someone when they make changes for the better just doesnt seem right.
 
You don't have to hold it to them exactly, but that doesn't mean they're in the clear either. They can of course be sorry or show remorse, but it doesn't change what they did nor does it mean you have to forgive them as such. It's a complex one and clearly depends on each issue and the actions that caused the harm.

If he knows the couples he's hurt, then he's hurt a friend and created a massive trust issue between the couple that I imagine will never recover.
 

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