England World Cup Squad

[BPM]

I still think Borthwick will go conservative. He won't want to shoulder too much blame if England have a miserable world cup. Bringing in too many new faces will put more responsibility onto him.

The biggest issue for England is not playing like a team. Too many players seem to be on different wave lengths. Will new players (even if they are playing well) fix this? Having said that, the majority of the current team have been their for years, so if they're not on the same wave length by now, will they ever?

Personally I'd love Borthwick to just throw caution to the wind and pick some more form players, I just don't see it happening until after the WC.

I mostly agree, although I'm not totally sure how relevant form is given the size of the gap from the last games players will have featured in.

Will a player bang in form in May be in the same form come the warm up games in August? Maybe, but probably not.

Ultimately a World Cup is about the best squad for the tournament. Planning for tomorrow takes a bit of a back seat. I'm a massive fan of Murley for example, but if someone like May is ripping it up in training, I could totally understand why he'd go ahead of Murley who is an unknown quantity or even Malins who has been no more than OK.

 

[Geordie]

perversely what we need for the RWC is someone with Jones impact and quick fix skill set.

And thats why i have a cheeky one on Australia for the WC...9 to 1 not bad.

 

[Geordie]

This isn't a golden generation, but it's not a terrible one either.

I think this is the biggest issue. We are at a cross roads.
Many of the older Experienced guys that you need at a world cup are injury prone or not making any statements with their performances on the pitch.

Likewise the new kids on the block tearing up the prem...like Pearson etc are untried.

So where does Borthwick go?
It'll be very interesting...but it may have to be that we go in to a world cup short of experience and caps as a group....and have to trust our youth...to a degree.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's a weird one because Borthwick always struck me as a low risk, pragmatic, kinda coach - but then he had no issue throwing Martin, Chessum, JvP, Kelly in as staters at Tigers when they were barely out of nappies

Does "if you're good enough you're old enough" translate into "if you're good enough you're experienced enough" at international?

 

[LIONSxv]

Lots of calls for a lock at six to add baulk. The issue we have is that Lawes, Isiekwe , Itoje carry no better than Curry, Willis, Pearson or Underhill. But loose a lot in defence and breakdown
Mercer would cover the third jumper well, so no requirement for a gangly 6 imo

Martin is too heavy and immobile for a six, but has the making of a specialist tighthead lock.The lad is already approaching 20st and is 22. Let's let him develop as a lock

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It's a weird one because Borthwick always struck me as a low risk, pragmatic, kinda coach - but then he had no issue throwing Martin, Chessum, JvP, Kelly in as staters at Tigers when they were barely out of nappies

Does "if you're good enough you're old enough" translate into "if you're good enough you're experienced enough" at international?

He also had a year with tigers with no pressure whatsoever he took over a team that should've been relegated and had something like 25 players leave.

Reality is Borthwick hasn't had a full season with any expectations yet, this season he had expectations on him and when he left half way through Tigers was like 7th

No one knows how he will handle the pressure of England

 

[MarkyH]

Having a productive morning at work so decided to make MY own squad. I want to be able to select two starting XVs.

Genge, Obano, Marler
George, LCD, Blamire
Sinckler, Stuart
Itoje, Chessum, Martin, Ribbans
Underhill, Lawes
Curry, Willis, Pearson
Mercer, Dombrandt

JVP, Mitchell
Farrell, Smith
Kelly, Tuilagi
Lawrence, Slade
Watson, Murley, Freeman
Steward, Arundell, Malins

(Standby - Rodd, Walker, Cole, Launchbury, Ludlam, Youngs, Ford, Daly)

So, the make up of the squad not to dissimilar to 2019 plus an extra 2 players. Taking Marler to cover both sides (as EJ did in 2019). Question marks over a few who are carrying injuries but included for now. Not going to take 3 scrum-halves or Fly-halves as there is little point. Malins is going as the utilty back who can cover 10, Wing and FB (Player 35% at wing, 32% at FB, 21% at 10). Don't need a third expert there.

I felt bad leaving Ludlam out but want to get Lawes in and 4 proper locks. Bolter in Pearson as I think he can be next level to Ludlam.

Starting XI Vs Argentina

Genge
George
Sinckler
Chessum
Itoje
Willis
Curry
Mercer

JVP
Farrell
Murley
Kelly
Lawrence
Watson
Steward

(Marler, LCD, Stuart, Martin, Pearson, Mitchell, Smith, Malins)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I felt bad leaving Ludlam out

I think RWC squads have to have three of each front row position in (that's why they increased the squad size) so you're going to have to make another difficult decision as well!

 

[Geordie]

It's a weird one because Borthwick always struck me as a low risk, pragmatic, kinda coach - but then he had no issue throwing Martin, Chessum, JvP, Kelly in as staters at Tigers when they were barely out of nappies

Does "if you're good enough you're old enough" translate into "if you're good enough you're experienced enough" at international?

I think if the prem was strong and actually a testing ground for international like a few years ago i would say yes...but at the moment im not sure it is. No relegation has meant all out attack and defence becoming a bit optional....NOT the best testing ground for international rugby.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Think only taking 2 9s would be a mistake too. Would say there's no need to take 6 specialist back three players or 11 loose five forwards.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

No relegation has meant all out attack and defence becoming a bit optional

Tell that to Sale's defence coach

 

[Geordie]

Tell that to Sale's defence coach

Appreciate a few exceptions...but you get my point

 

[LIONSxv]

Having a productive morning at work so decided to make MY own squad. I want to be able to select two starting XVs.

Genge, Obano, Marler
George, LCD, Blamire
Sinckler, Stuart
Itoje, Chessum, Martin, Ribbans
Underhill, Lawes
Curry, Willis, Pearson
Mercer, Dombrandt

JVP, Mitchell
Farrell, Smith
Kelly, Tuilagi
Lawrence, Slade
Watson, Murley, Freeman
Steward, Arundell, Malins

(Standby - Rodd, Walker, Cole, Launchbury, Ludlam, Youngs, Ford, Daly)

So, the make up of the squad not to dissimilar to 2019 plus an extra 2 players. Taking Marler to cover both sides (as EJ did in 2019). Question marks over a few who are carrying injuries but included for now. Not going to take 3 scrum-halves or Fly-halves as there is little point. Malins is going as the utilty back who can cover 10, Wing and FB (Player 35% at wing, 32% at FB, 21% at 10). Don't need a third expert there.

I felt bad leaving Ludlam out but want to get Lawes in and 4 proper locks. Bolter in Pearson as I think he can be next level to Ludlam.

Starting XI Vs Argentina

Genge
George
Sinckler
Chessum
Itoje
Willis
Curry
Mercer

JVP
Farrell
Murley
Kelly
Lawrence
Watson
Steward

(Marler, LCD, Stuart, Martin, Pearson, Mitchell, Smith, Malins)

Not a bad shout. Chessun is unlikely to be fit and Sinks needs dropping. I like your midfield nice balance. Back three is steady without any blistering speed.

 

[MarkyH]

I think RWC squads have to have three of each front row position in (that's why they increased the squad size) so you're going to have to make another difficult decision as well!

This isn't fun. I'll take Freeman out sadly (I really really really like Freeman) and take Hayes. Sorted.

 

[MarkyH]

Not a bad shout. Chessun is unlikely to be fit and Sinks needs dropping. I like your midfield nice balance. Back three is steady without any blistering speed.

Yeah I wanted to take am extra someone in the back three. Wanted a proper winger so taken Murley but would happily take May but not sure he's as rapid as he was. Arundell has gas.

As for Chessum, fingers crossed he makes it, or we just take Launch if he's fit. Or Isiekwe.

 

[BPM]

Not a bad shout. Chessun is unlikely to be fit and Sinks needs dropping. I like your midfield nice balance. Back three is steady without any blistering speed.

Even if it were true that 'Sinks needs dropping', that also necessitates having a suitable replacement. Right now, I'm not sure that person exists.

Similarly 'Back three is steady without any blistering speed'. Who is this mythical speed merchant?

 

[BPM]

I think this is the biggest issue. We are at a cross roads.
Many of the older Experienced guys that you need at a world cup are injury prone or not making any statements with their performances on the pitch.

Likewise the new kids on the block tearing up the prem...like Pearson etc are untried.

So where does Borthwick go?
It'll be very interesting...but it may have to be that we go in to a world cup short of experience and caps as a group....and have to trust our youth...to a degree.

I think we're a bit past the crossroads sadly.

So far I'm not overly unhappy with Borthwick's selections. The key piece is getting the side to perform to the sum of its parts (or preferably more than the sum of its parts). That hasn't happened with this group of players for a long time. I'm really hoping the extended time in camp goes some way towards solving that.

I think a couple of decent performances against Argentina and Japan could be transformative. It's probably wishful thinking, but with the draw we have, getting a bit of mojo back at the right time could see us do well.

 

[LIONSxv]

Even if it were true that 'Sinks needs dropping', that also necessitates having a suitable replacement. Right now, I'm not sure that person exists.

Similarly 'Back three is steady without any blistering speed'. Who is this mythical speed merchant?

I'd play Stuart if fit, he adds weight in the right 5 and his carrying has improved. Tbh anyone that at least looks like they want to be their will an improvement

Speed wise I'd have gone for Thorley or Arundell

 

[Saintjay]

Even if it were true that 'Sinks needs dropping', that also necessitates having a suitable replacement. Right now, I'm not sure that person exists.

Similarly 'Back three is steady without any blistering speed'. Who is this mythical speed merchant?

I think that's the problem with England in one word Steady. I believe it's been said that to win a world cup you need 3-4 members of your squad who are arguably the best in the world in there position. England probably have one if they are lucky.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Does "if you're good enough you're old enough" translate into "if you're good enough you're experienced enough" at international?

No. I mean it can do when everything's going well but when push comes to shove experience matters. Successful RWC teams tend to be cap heavy. Think of what France have done to deliberately load their team with experience for this tournament.

Martin is too heavy and immobile for a six, but has the making of a specialist tighthead lock.The lad is already approaching 20st and is 22. Let's let him develop as a lock

Well the last RWC winners had 2 120kg guys in their back row and I doubt Martin tips the scales at much more than PSDT or Vermuelen.

Play someone like Martin and you can complement him with the faster Curry and Mercer to do the running. In any event Martin's looked plenty quick enough, has a high work rate, hits hard and is a line out option. I know he's moved to lock for Tigers and bulked up but he looks like a 6 all day long to me. which is partly my confirmation bias of locks starting at 2.02m…..