England World Cup Squad

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Martin is a lock, but he is certainly capable of playing 6

PSTD isn't that mobile a 6
Lawes was great at 6 and he wasn't that mobile

Martin carrying has massively improved as he has bulked up, he's hitting like a speed train

Mind we need locks more than back rows

 

[LIONSxv]

I think that's the problem with England in one word Steady. I believe it's been said that to win a world cup you need 3-4 members of your squad who are arguably the best in the world in there position. England probably have one if they are lucky.

I agree with current sentiment. However we do have players that are young enough to either develop or have played at that level then dropped off. Genge, Curry, Underhill and Itoje have all played at a very high world class level but then dropped off or become inconsistent
Then you have young players such as Smith, Steward and Lawrence who with fine tuning and experience could definitely go up several levels from their current ability

In the third Group you have J Willis and Mercer who have yet to have a proper run in the team due to injury or preclusion.

I'm not saying for one minute that any of those players possibly barring Genge or Curry have showed anything in last two years to be anywhere near a World XV. However their is ton of ability amongst them

 

[BPM]

Yeah. I think that's fair. The group of 4 you mentioned are certainly capable of world class performances. We just need all of them to show that now it really counts.

 

[LIONSxv]

No. I mean it can do when everything's going well but when push comes to shove experience matters. Successful RWC teams tend to be cap heavy. Think of what France have done to deliberately load their team with experience for this tournament.



Well the last RWC winners had 2 120kg guys in their back row and I doubt Martin tips the scales at much more than PSDT or Vermuelen.

Play someone like Martin and you can complement him with the faster Curry and Mercer to do the running. In any event Martin's looked plenty quick enough, has a high work rate, hits hard and is a line out option. I know he's moved to lock for Tigers and bulked up but he looks like a 6 all day long to me. which is partly my confirmation bias of locks starting at 2.02m…..

This is the problem for me, we are trying to find our own PSDT. He is unique a freak almost. What sets him apart is his mobility and breakdown work. We don't have six that has the same natural ability. Nor do we have Jerome Kaino

Eddie tried to replicate this after the last world cup by introducing Lawes at 6 and moving a baulked up Curry to 8. It failed miserably.

Our best and most consistent ruby since 2003 has been playing with flankers as flankers. Robson and Haskell, Wilson and Curry and Underhill and Curry

 

[Geordie]

George Martin is 6'6 and around the 20 stone mark i believe. Same as Brad Thorn, George Kruis, Bakkies Botha etc etc...some of the top "grunt locks" of recent years. So hes got the right size. If he keeps his mobility, continues to improve the huge defence and hard carrying then hes going to be quite a prospect. Hes performed superb of late in that heavy duty lock role and is the type of lock we have been missing.

Add some mobile grunt and power in that back row...and suddenly Itoje might be released to work his magic and things start to transform. Or Chessum when he returns.

 

[Geordie]

This is the problem for me, we are trying to find our own PSDT. He is unique a freak almost. What sets him apart is his mobility and breakdown work. We don't have six that has the same natural ability. Nor do we have Jerome Kaino

Eddie tried to replicate this after the last world cup by introducing Lawes at 6 and moving a baulked up Curry to 8. It failed miserably.

Our best and most consistent ruby since 2003 has been playing with flankers as flankers. Robson and Haskell, Wilson and Curry and Underhill and Curry

Well Curry was playing great at 6. And Pearson is 6'3 and over 17 stone. If we have Mercer as a lineout option at 8...suddenly you dont need the 6 to be that a monster. Also with Martin in there now...suddenly you have some of that raw power that ive been wanting England to find for a long time...hence my calls for Ted HIll.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Actually wouldn't mind seeing Martin have a go at 8 if Mercer doesn't work out. Think he'd compliment a Curry-Underhill flanker pairing perfectly.

Also on the world class players thing, I'd say that all of Genge, Itoje, Lawes, Underhill, Curry, Faz, Tuilagi, Watson and Steward are capable of putting in genuinely world class performances on their day. It's just a case of getting the best out of them which hasn't been done for quite some time.

 

[AlRums]

Simmonds walks away from England's Rugby World Cup campaign

Back row Sam Simmonds has made the difficult decision to withdraw himself from contention for England's Rugby World Cup squad.

www.rugbypass.com

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Nowell and Simmonds

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

George Martin is 6'6 and around the 20 stone mark i believe. Same as Brad Thorn, George Kruis, Bakkies Botha etc etc...some of the top "grunt locks" of recent years. So hes got the right size. If he keeps his mobility, continues to improve the huge defence and hard carrying then hes going to be quite a prospect. Hes performed superb of late in that heavy duty lock role and is the type of lock we have been missing.

Add some mobile grunt and power in that back row...and suddenly Itoje might be released to work his magic and things start to transform. Or Chessum when he returns.

Thorn and Botha are a little while back now. Kruis is more recent but where he differs is his line out ability - not just to secure his ball but to attack the opponents.

I want at least 2 jumpers in a team who can properly attack opposition ball and I don't really see Martin as that (or Launch especially). Itoje has done, but not really recently, Lawes absolutely can, and the best of our locks at that is probably Isiekwe. 22/23 Isiekwe hasn't been vintage but I look on him as a Kruis proxy - does the basics well and while you're not always quite sure exactly what he does, at club level at least, teams seem to function better with him in. Martin's not a highlights reel player as you might call Itoje, but he's definitely prominent and eye catching. I'd also say Isiekwe's our standout at restarts but Martin's current all round form is definitely superior.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Personally think that 4. Itoje 5. Martin could work really well if you have Lawes at 6, but not really with anyone else.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Can't believe it's 2023 and we're still obsessing over lineout jumpers in the backrow

We're going to be going into the world cup with 5 regular targets no matter what combination of 2nd/backrow we put out - can we not just be happy with that?

Endless pages of stressing about it in 2019, saying we couldn't play the kamikaze twins together because we need a lock in the backrow and TC ended up being one of our main targets in the tournament

 

[Geordie]

Thorn and Botha are a little while back now. Kruis is more recent but where he differs is his line out ability - not just to secure his ball but to attack the opponents.

I want at least 2 jumpers in a team who can properly attack opposition ball and I don't really see Martin as that (or Launch especially). Itoje has done, but not really recently, Lawes absolutely can, and the best of our locks at that is probably Isiekwe. 22/23 Isiekwe hasn't been vintage but I look on him as a Kruis proxy - does the basics well and while you're not always quite sure exactly what he does, at club level at least, teams seem to function better with him in. Martin's not a highlights reel player as you might call Itoje, but he's definitely prominent and eye catching. I'd also say Isiekwe's our standout at restarts but Martin's current all round form is definitely superior.

They are but i dont think its changed hugely. Martin is a reasonable jumper, but thats an aspect of his game im sure can improve under Borthwick etc. Hes only 22

Ive lived in hope for Isiekwe to come good for many years now...but im starting to think that ship has sailed. Hes 25...and unless he has a blinding season next year...he may find himself getting pushed aside with regards to England.

If lawes is fit and firing then Itoje, Lawes and Mercer gives you 3 jumpers...with Martin, Curry other options

 

[Everyday EggChaser]

Martin is and will be for the foreseeable future a heavy, strong tighthead lock, and moves like one.

Chessum looks far more mobile but no one has mentioned him as the 6? He is rather quick and mobile for 6'7 and has started at 8 for Tigers...?

 

[Geordie]

Martin is and will be for the foreseeable future a heavy, strong tighthead lock, and moves like one.

Chessum looks far more mobile but no one has mentioned him as the 6? He is rather quick and mobile for 6'7 and has started at 8 for Tigers...?

I see it as Chessum and Martin in the engine room...thats a very nicely balanced lock pairing. Itoje is class but he will have a fight on his hands soon...

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Thing with Chessum is I don't see him playing lock for much longer. Soon enough Tigers are gonna have all of Martin, Henderson and 2 Chessums fighting for 2 starting lock slots. Think O. Chessum is gonna find himself playing a lot more back row than lock in the upcoming seasons.

 

[Saintjay]

Englands line out isn't an issue. Borthwick is a line out nause. Englands problem is the forwards in the front three. I don't expect are scrum to be SA but it's not exactly instilling the fear of god in anyone.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Can't believe it's 2023 and we're still obsessing over lineout jumpers in the backrow

We're going to be going into the world cup with 5 regular targets no matter what combination of 2nd/backrow we put out - can we not just be happy with that?

Endless pages of stressing about it in 2019, saying we couldn't play the kamikaze twins together because we need a lock in the backrow and TC ended up being one of our main targets in the tournament

Own ball's one thing, but my issue is about disrupting / stealing oppo ball from which great attacking opportunities can come and can also be invaluable in defence.

I want 2 jumpers who are very capable of doing that - if you only have one threat the opponent just avoids them. I don't really care what numbers they wear on their shirts, but they're likely to be specialists not occasionals.

If you have Etzebeth and his twin brother in the row the back row can be any 3 of Grumpy, Sneezy, Happy and Doc for all I care.

 

[Geordie]

Thing with Chessum is I don't see him playing lock for much longer. Soon enough Tigers are gonna have all of Martin, Henderson and 2 Chessums fighting for 2 starting lock slots. Think O. Chessum is gonna find himself playing a lot more back row than lock in the upcoming seasons.

Yes very possibly...theres Carmichael also...whos 6'10 or 6'11 and very promising. So maybe one or 2 moves on.

Its going to be fascinating to see how Chessum Jr Develops post WC....hes a monster of a unit.

 

[Geordie]

Englands line out isn't an issue. Borthwick is a line out nause. Englands problem is the forwards in the front three. I don't expect are scrum to be SA but it's not exactly instilling the fear of god in anyone.

Locks are a huge part of the scrum aswell though...a lock who can really scrummage is a game changer at scrum time.

Find one who can scrum and dominate a lineout...youve got a very rare gem.