England World Cup Squad

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd like Borthwick to use this as the start to a new cycle of players and identity rather than waiting till after the WC.

We have good teams, and easy teams in our group, and that's probably a great environment to bring in new players, to get used to each other and get used to plays. And if we find ourselves in the latter stages then it's an experience that will help them come 2027.

I also want Borthwick to really shape an identity to the squad (Similar to how Southgate has). He has an opportunity and a clean slate to build from here, from the warm up games through to the next 6 Nations. Players with potential and the right attitude can be tested now, and in 4 years time we won't be worrying as much about our identity or bringing in potential. It has to be done over time, but this is a time to start it.

EJ left a mess, a team with no identity and an inability to bring in players and a stubbornness to drop others and we have the huge hole in our experience.

The fiasco we had at 9 is the prime example of EJ's ******* about and not building any contingency. Went into his first world cup with only 1 established 9 whose form was questionable. At the time he was booted, we still had 1 established 9 (admittedly we were beginning to look at others but it should have been done even before Care was dropped).

It also a chance to throw some players in at the deep end. As long as he doesn't do an EJ and set them up to fail, it can allow us to quickly find who is a test animal already and who may need additional work, so long as it isn't an excuse to drop them completely out of contention for future games post WC. We may stumble across a gem (eg I'm still putting money on Mercer being a test match animal) and potentially save lots of time faffing about after.

 

[BPM]

I'd like Borthwick to use this as the start to a new cycle of players and identity rather than waiting till after the WC.

We have good teams, and easy teams in our group, and that's probably a great environment to bring in new players, to get used to each other and get used to plays. And if we find ourselves in the latter stages then it's an experience that will help them come 2027.

I also want Borthwick to really shape an identity to the squad (Similar to how Southgate has). He has an opportunity and a clean slate to build from here, from the warm up games through to the next 6 Nations. Players with potential and the right attitude can be tested now, and in 4 years time we won't be worrying as much about our identity or bringing in potential. It has to be done over time, but this is a time to start it.

EJ left a mess, a team with no identity and an inability to bring in players and a stubbornness to drop others and we have the huge hole in our experience.

I agree with some of this, but if we go too far towards planning for the future, it's pretty much saying 'we can't win this RWC'.

I genuinely think we have an outside shot. Obviously it would need a huge step up in performance, but if are able to win the group, I would fancy us in a QF vs. most likely one of Wales or Fiji. Then it's a SF against a side who've had a much, much tougher route to that point. Fatigue is less of an issue with bigger breaks between games, but I can only see those QFs taking a big toll on the sides on that side of the draw.

I wouldn't rule out both England and Australia making the semis. Whether we can go beyond that is another question.

 

[MarkyH]

I agree with some of this, but if we go too far towards planning for the future, it's pretty much saying 'we can't win this RWC'.

I genuinely think we have an outside shot. Obviously it would need a huge step up in performance, but if are able to win the group, I would fancy us in a QF vs. most likely one of Wales or Fiji. Then it's a SF against a side who've had a much, much tougher route to that point. Fatigue is less of an issue with bigger breaks between games, but I can only see those QFs taking a big toll on the sides on that side of the draw.

I wouldn't rule out both England and Australia making the semis. Whether we can go beyond that is another question.

I'm quite possibly of the mindset 'we can't win this RWC' but I'd happily be proven wrong. I'm not suggesting we throw everyone out, but a good mix as per my squad selection on Pg4. Also, its a mindset and identity they need to foster, and this time together in the build up and WC is a good a time as any to start that off.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

It's enough time in camp for Borthwick to foster a 'together' mentality and get that cohesiveness that we've been missing. There is no reason why we can't at least get to the semis or finals if we can sort out the team cohesion and our attack.

It's a big if though and I'm not sure Borthwick is up to the job but at least he gets learn from this WC.

 

[Saintjay]

Should be a minimum standard for England getting to the semi-finals. Especially given this draw. Anything less should be job threatening for an England headcoach.

 

[BPM]

And you wonder why England are labelled arrogant?

I dislike that kind of entitled 'we should be a SF at a minimum' statement and I'm not sure about 'job threatening'. Right now, we're in a pretty poor place And I think expectations are realistically low, irrespective of a favourable draw.

A lot depends on how it pans out too. If we were to lose to Argentina (who are a good side), come second in the group and narrowly lose to Eddie's Australia team it would be painful AF, but it wouldn't exactly be shocking.

 

[Saintjay]

And you wonder why England are labelled arrogant?

I dislike that kind of entitled 'we should be a SF at a minimum' statement and I'm not sure about 'job threatening'. Right now, we're in a pretty poor place And I think expectations are realistically low, irrespective of a favourable draw.

A lot depends on how it pans out too. If we were to lose to Argentina (who are a good side), come second in the group and narrowly lose to Eddie's Australia team it would be painful AF, but it wouldn't exactly be shocking.

Yes it's possible we come second in the group and lose to Australia. I would seriously question Borthwick then, people on this forum already have said he was the wrong call.

It's about high expectations, high standards, winning and professional sports. Lancaster and EJ were sacked for not meeting those. It was exactly why people wanted them to go. It wasn't arrongance or entitlement. People expected higher standards, decent performances and to win, or is that arrogant expecting that. Do we except 7th or 8th in the world 3rd or 4th in the six nations because we don't expect better or dare upset people who think we are arrogant.

My expectations are low like many, but i won't ever think it's good enough if we lose in the quaters or worry about being called arrogant for saying this is a game we should win or set high standards. It's professional rugby with a team / union that is meant to be up there as the best. It's not about clapping and saying good game chaps, it's the taking part that counts.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Yes it's possible we come second in the group and lose to Australia. I would seriously question Borthwick then, people on this forum already have said he was the wrong call.

It's about high expectations, high standards, winning and professional sports. Lancaster and EJ were sacked for not meeting those. It was exactly why people wanted them to go. It wasn't arrongance or entitlement. People expected higher standards, decent performances and to win, or is that arrogant expecting that. Do we except 7th or 8th in the world 3rd or 4th in the six nations because we don't expect better or dare upset people who think we are arrogant.

My expectations are low like many, but i won't ever think it's good enough if we lose in the quaters or worry about being called arrogant for saying this is a game we should win or set high standards. It's professional rugby with a team / union that is meant to be up there as the best. It's not about clapping and saying good game chaps, it's the taking part that counts.

I think it's due to the fact we've changed our coach so recently and had a poor 6 nations that BPM talked about arrogance. I like you, think we should be hitting the semis at all WCs but the caveat to that is EJ left the squad in a mess and Borthwick hasn't had much time to do anything about that.

That's different from Lancaster and jones who both had a long time to prepare.

 

[RedruthRFC]

And you wonder why England are labelled arrogant?

I dislike that kind of entitled 'we should be a SF at a minimum' statement and I'm not sure about 'job threatening'. Right now, we're in a pretty poor place And I think expectations are realistically low, irrespective of a favourable draw.

A lot depends on how it pans out too. If we were to lose to Argentina (who are a good side), come second in the group and narrowly lose to Eddie's Australia team it would be painful AF, but it wouldn't exactly be shocking.

And the people who accuse England of being arrogant are the same people who write off England's achievements on the basis that it's the minimum that should be expected with the players / resources available.

I don't see why it's "entitled" to say that the 6th ranked side in the world should expect to come out in the top 2 against the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th sides in the world. That's not to say that they will, the scenario you describe seems slightly more likely than England failing to qualify from their pool in 2015 to me.

 

[BPM]

I think it's due to the fact we've changed our coach so recently and had a poor 6 nations that BPM talked about arrogance. I like you, think we should be hitting the semis at all WCs but the caveat to that is EJ left the squad in a mess and Borthwick hasn't had much time to do anything about that.

That's different from Lancaster and jones who both had a long time to prepare.

Exactly. It is arrogant to expect us to be in the SF as a 'minimum standard' when at the current point in time, we definitely aren't playing at that level.

As I said earlier, I think we will make the semis, but if we play well and get knocked out by a better side than we are now in the QFs, I don't think that would be a total disaster.

Essentially, I think we need to be realistic about where we rather than setting SFs as a 'minimum standard' just because we've been at that level historically.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Argentina coached by Cheika and Japan by Joseph may have something to say about England getting out the pool though. And a tough one v Samoa.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Argentina coached by Cheika and Japan by Joseph may have something to say about England getting out the pool though. And a tough one v Samoa.

That really would be a catastrophe - I don't care how long borthwick has been in the job, if he didn't get out of the group, he'd have to go

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

That really would be a catastrophe - I don't care how long borthwick has been in the job, if he didn't get out of the group, he'd have to go

Yeah, bad as England are, crashing out in the group stages when you're not in a pool of death is just not acceptable (arguably not in a pool of death either but someone has to be the one in that case).

 

[BPM]

Agreed. As of right now, I don't think we can take qualifying for the QFs as a given. Argentina and Japan are both good sides and have shown in the past that they're capable of getting big results.

They'll know that we have the potential to be a lot better than we have been recently, but they'll definitely smell blood and think they can turn us over too. The opening game vs. Argentina is massive for this squad.

The only positive to take from our lack of form in recent times is that any kind of complacency that might have been there should have been knocked right out of us.

 

[Which Tyler]

I think people are largely reading what they want into other peoples' words here.

Factually, England (6th) are ranked higher than Argentina (8th), Japan (10th), Samoa (12th) and Chile (22nd). The RWC is played on neutral territory for all 4 teams.

We SHOULD beat all of those on any given one-off fixture. We OUGHT to beat all of those on any given one-off fixture.
That doesn't mean we will.
It doesn't mean we'll hammer any of them.
It doesn't make them non-contests.
3 of those are close enough that a loss for England would be an upset, not a huge shock (at this point in time). This may change with form in subsequent matches, injuries etc - but currently, we expect to win all 4 of those matches, because currently, we are better them, as shown by the evidence.

That;s not arrogance, or misplaced confidence, or anything like that; just evidence from the last few years of rugby.
Hell, I also wouldn't talk about arrogance if Argentina or Japan talked about expecting to beat England either (or, TBH Samoa, with their new influx of experienced internationals from elsewhere).
Arrogance would be dismissing the possibility of a loss. Arrogance would be expecting to beat a team who are, say >8 ranking points* ahead of you (absent nuance factors like injuries, new influx, form over the last 4 weeks etc).


In terms of the likely QFs, then at this point in time, we're ahead of both Wales and Australia in the rankings; with added nuance that in the last 18 months, we've beaten both of them twice (and lost to Australia once). It's not arrogance to expect to beat them either - at this point in time. When it comes to it, that will almost certainly be different, and recent form will play a bigger part; but currently, nobody has form from the last 4 weeks of rugby, because there hasn't been any international rugby in the last 4 weeks.


* Figure plucked out of my arse; I suspect there'll be a number for anyone who can be bothered crunching the numbers, where the chances of success drops off a cliff.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Agreed. As of right now, I don't think we can take qualifying for the QFs as a given. Argentina and Japan are both good sides and have shown in the past that they're capable of getting big results.

They'll know that we have the potential to be a lot better than we have been recently, but they'll definitely smell blood and think they can turn us over too. The opening game vs. Argentina is massive for this squad.

The only positive to take from our lack of form in recent times is that any kind of complacency that might have been there should have been knocked right out of us.

I think lack of confidence is a bigger issue than complacency. Results and performances have been crap so players will inevitably be looking at each other and the coaching staff and wondering if they're all really up to it. That's just what happens when things aren't going well. Genuine confidence stems from achievement and trust, both of which I suspect are in short supply.

Others in the pool will be scenting blood, but even in our current state we ought to navigate that comfortably enough. If we don't that's the end of Borthwick and several players.

 

[BPM]

Yeah. That's fair.

I agree with a lot of @Which Tyler's post.

To be totally clear and put this to bed, I think it would arrogant to set the SF's as a 'minimum standard'. However, I don't think it is arrogant to anticipate (not expect) that we maintain our record against Argentina and Japan. If we do that, it really is game on.

I'm not dismissing the threat of Samoa, but given the sequence of games, I'd be very disappointed if we slip on a banana skin at the end of the pool.

 

[AlRums]

We want England players in England - Borthwick

England head coach Steve Borthwick hopes stakeholders in the domestic game can help to move English rugby to the "top of the world".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Steve Borthwick insists Billy Vunipola still part of England’s World Cup plans

Billy Vunipola is on course to be fast-tracked back into England’s Rugby World Cup side with Steve Borthwick regarding him as a crucial part of their plans

www.theguardian.com

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Which means one (or maybe even both) of Dombrandt or Mercer aren't going then

Guessing we'll see one or both of them tried at 6 to see if they can go as utility forwards rather than dedicated 8