England World Cup Squad

[higgik]

Big Ted must be able to cover 8. Be like having a young Vermuelen at 8

I think everyone is hoping Mercer hits the ground running...my jury is still out on Dombrandt at this level. Hes done better than i think many have actually given him credit for...but i think thats because hes done better in the tight, dark art areas (breakdown etc) than the flashy running and handling hes more known for. BUT...im not sure if he'll hit the heights we hope. And how long do you give him.

Or even Pearson at 8.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

And Underhill not far above in each. Below par, misleading stats or the Bath factor?

The stats are undoubtedly below par, but Bath may well also be a factor.

Also worth mentioning with Underhill's stats that he only played ~300 minutes this season, while all of the others ranged from 800-1300 minutes. That will definitely have affected his stats a bit, plus the fact that he was hardly ever able to put a run of games together. Don't want to be too much of an apologist for one player while simultaneously condemning another but in this case, he's Underhill; he gets the benefit of the doubt.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Hope this isn't a naive question, but if we aren't happy with our Number 8s, could Lawes play that role and free up the talented mix we have competing for the 6 and 7 slots?

When I think of him at his best, his carrying and his ability to offload in contact might suit him in some aspects of the game an international 8 would be needing to demonstrate. I don't think he'd be massively different to a Billy Vunipola style 8 if he played it.

Talking of him, is there any incline of BV finding his absolute best for this tournament or is it possibly just a tournament too far?

As a further note, this squad does highlight just how short at lock we are on paper for this RWC and I would again be very keen to know whether anyone thinks Lawes could do it for this tournament or not?

Really hope Steve and the coaching staff can really knit this squad together now over the next couple of months and get a real cohesion in place to give it a right old go. Hope we can keep everyone fit and well- big few months ahead.

Lawes is a terrible carrier!

 

[Wasps92]

View attachment 16845
Underhill's shoulders are genuinely absurd.

Name of a Hobbit, body of an Orc.

 

[Jimbo]

Trouble is with those stats (and many others) doesn't give much to go on outside of raw quantity, not all tackles are created equally, sometimes one dominant momentum swinging hit can be worth many passive tackles, Underhill's USP has always been winning the collision and giving his partner a good opportunity to Jackle (kamikaze twins), sometimes this will lead to possession gained penalty or otherwise others just stopping the momentum and forcing the opposition into play they are uncomfortable with.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Trouble is with those stats (and many others) doesn't give much to go on outside of raw quantity, not all tackles are created equally, sometimes one dominant momentum swinging hit can be worth many passive tackles, Underhill's USP has always been winning the collision and giving his partner a good opportunity to Jackle (kamikaze twins), sometimes this will lead to possession gained penalty or otherwise others just stopping the momentum and forcing the opposition into play they are uncomfortable with.

If Hill's stats were still fairly competitive but he was just trailing behind a bit in some areas then I'd be inclined to agree, but he is at the very bottom in every single category, and by some distance. He's made 2 turnovers all season, while T. Curry and Earl have averaged more than that per individual game, and he's only making half as many tackles as most of his rivals. IMO that can't just be explained away with 'not all tackles are created equally'. An international back rower needs to be getting through work and at the moment Hill just isn't.

Edit: just to really put it into perspective, he makes less tackles per game and less carries per game than any of the props in the current squad.

 

[Geordie]

Well as a massive Ted Hill caller...I'm actually surprised by those stats. Doesn't tell the whole story...but I guess it does tell quite a bit.

 

[BPM]

It might be why he's not been making squads when most of us (me included) would have expected his inclusion.

 

[Geordie]

Absolutely....and the likes of Jones will live by stats like those.

 

[Jimbo]

I was speaking more of Underhill not Hill who's stats are a little low but not bottom, he has only just came back from injury to then get a head related one that has to take a toll, as has been mentioned he is part of a pretty underwhelming Bath squad so that will play a part, with all this said I still don't want to see him in the squad purely due to his health but as was pointed out the onus isn't on the coaches but the individual to decide that, although I can see why you might be happier facing some of the premiership clubs regularly over the brutality of some of the national sides again this would be a personal thing for him to determine but purely and selfishly I don't think there is anyone else who can do the job so effectively.

 

[Geordie]

I wonder what some of their stats for ruck clear outs etc were like.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If Hill's stats were still fairly competitive but he was just trailing behind a bit in some areas then I'd be inclined to agree, but he is at the very bottom in every single category, and by some distance. He's made 2 turnovers all season, while T. Curry and Earl have averaged more than that per individual game, and he's only making half as many tackles as most of his rivals. IMO that can't just be explained away with 'not all tackles are created equally'. An international back rower needs to be getting through work and at the moment Hill just isn't.

Edit: just to really put it into perspective, he makes less tackles per game and less carries per game than any of the props in the current squad.

I'm not disagreeing at all.

But you also have to compare apples with apples.

Several of those listed are either out and out open sides or can play either flank with roughly equal facility. Hill is a big guy who's an out and out oldish school 6 so you might expect fewer of his carries to be in the wider channels where metres can be racked up and you can't expect him to turnover anything like the Currys although I just don't believe 2.

The stats shown are selective and there are plenty of others that could be used - turnovers / pens conceded, % dominant tackles, line outs won etc. I would have absolutely expected his tackle count and completion rate to be right up there though. Like for like comparisons would be with the likes of Lawes etc, but those numbers definitely paint a picture and successive England coaches, and me, can't all be wrong.

 

[Geordie]

Yeah his tackle stats seem very poor which is the one I thought he should be dominant in that. I'd like to see what some of the guys clear out stats are like.

I notice Pearson was 2nd top on tackles made with 240. Alex Moon was top..and Fraser Dingwall hit 203...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Just realised in those stats, Hill is under Underhill.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Times saying that T Willis is likely to come into contention over the summer. Fully in favour of that.

Likewise Launchbury. And also saying that Steve Hansen who worked with him in Japan had given him rave reviews for his scrummaging power.

 

[BPM]

I'd love Launch to have an Indian Summer with England. Restarts aside, he's almost always been very good and he may just give us what we've been lacking - even more so if Chessum is out.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Tom Willis being available really makes backrow selection tougher!
I've not seen him in the top 14 (by all accounts he's tearing it up) but he was excellent for wasps before they folded
No way we'd take three 8s

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Tom Willis being available really makes backrow selection tougher!
I've not seen him in the top 14 (by all accounts he's tearing it up) but he was excellent for wasps before they folded
No way we'd take three 8s

Agreed, but on the experience front I doubt we'd take both Mercer and T Willis. Post RWC might be a different kettle of fish and I think Sarries will be a very good move for Willis.

If Launch is fit he surely has to go. Good solid player with 70 caps of experience and nearly 20 stones of much needed heft. Possibly a bit fresher than some of the Prem based players too.

 

[Reiser99]

I still think Borthwick will go conservative. He won't want to shoulder too much blame if England have a miserable world cup. Bringing in too many new faces will put more responsibility onto him.

The biggest issue for England is not playing like a team. Too many players seem to be on different wave lengths. Will new players (even if they are playing well) fix this? Having said that, the majority of the current team have been their for years, so if they're not on the same wave length by now, will they ever?

Personally I'd love Borthwick to just throw caution to the wind and pick some more form players, I just don't see it happening until after the WC.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The biggest issue for England is not playing like a team. Too many players seem to be on different wave lengths. Will new players (even if they are playing well) fix this? Having said that, the majority of the current team have been their for years, so if they're not on the same wave length by now, will they ever?

This isn't a golden generation, but it's not a terrible one either.

Since winning the 2020 6N Jones didn't get a tune out of them and so far nor has Borthwick. The players must take some responsibility, but I'm putting that down mainly to the coaching.

If that sounds harsh on Borthwick, yes he's new, but Jones was also fresh to the job with little prep time when he took the ruins of the 15 RWC side to an immediate GS and then on a long unbeaten run. There's been no Borthers Bounce in style, cohesion or results which is concerning and perversely what we need for the RWC is someone with Jones impact and quick fix skill set.