England vs Wales - 12/08/23

[Vieux Talonneur]

Is it essential to have a specialised 8? Good article in World Rugby magazine about it. And Ardie Savea isnt an 8 but not doing too shabby. Only 6'2 and 16st...same as Ben Earl...who will probably be covering 8 for us.

I think it is. They don't have to be huge, but there are some very position specific skills, particularly controlling and picking up the ball from the base of the scrum. Which, like any skill, is only honed through experience.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'd also say that Ardie is an 8 by now. 65 of his 69 starts since the 2019 RWC have come in that position. If that doesn't make him an 8, what does?

 

[Geordie]

So aside from control at the base of the scrum...what other skills are specific to 8 as opposed to the other back rowers.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

So aside from control at the base of the scrum...what other skills are specific to 8 as opposed to the other back rowers.

They play a different role in open play but that may be how players who play 8 play in general rather than it being a training thing.

in general backrow is more about balance across the three.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

We'll still have the silly ******** of rejigging most of the backline when Ford comes on.

Otherwise looks like a strong squad. Pace on the wings will never catch on though.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

We'll still have the silly ******** of rejigging most of the backline when Ford comes on.

Tbh it's not that much of a rejig to take Lawrence off and move Faz to 12 (which is what I expect to happen since Lawrence has only just gotten back from injury). After that I'd say either Marchant or Steward get the hook since both played the full 80 last weekend.

Either:
11. Malins
13. Daly
14. Arundell
15. Steward

Or

11. Daly
13. Marchant
14. Arundell
15. Malins

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

They play a different role in open play but that may be how players who play 8 play in general rather than it being a training thing.

in general backrow is more about balance across the three.

Yep.

Teams can deploy players how they want, using the available skills. The key isnt numbers on shirts but players acting instinctively rather than having to think.

If part of the 8's designated role is kick returns they need to be dropping back away from the action. That would be a huge mindset shift for, say, Curry whose whole career has been predicated on hunting down the ball and being right in the thick of it.

That said, the 8 is often a totemic figure in teams, heavily involved in tempo setting. Possibly because they get their hands on the ball more than other forwards. Savea and Alldritt now, Parisse, Read and Faletau before, even Binny for a while have all been dominant figures in their teams.

 

[Geordie]

Yep.

Teams can deploy players how they want, using the available skills. The key isnt numbers on shirts but players acting instinctively rather than having to think.

If part of the 8's designated role is kick returns they need to be dropping back away from the action. That would be a huge mindset shift for, say, Curry whose whole career has been predicated on hunting down the ball and being right in the thick of it.

That said, the 8 is often a totemic figure in teams, heavily involved in tempo setting. Possibly because they get their hands on the ball more than other forwards. Savea and Alldritt now, Parisse, Read and Faletau before, even Binny for a while have all been dominant figures in their teams.

i do agree completely with that....

 

[Jimbo]

Yep.

Teams can deploy players how they want, using the available skills. The key isnt numbers on shirts but players acting instinctively rather than having to think.

If part of the 8's designated role is kick returns they need to be dropping back away from the action. That would be a huge mindset shift for, say, Curry whose whole career has been predicated on hunting down the ball and being right in the thick of it.

That said, the 8 is often a totemic figure in teams, heavily involved in tempo setting. Possibly because they get their hands on the ball more than other forwards. Savea and Alldritt now, Parisse, Read and Faletau before, even Binny for a while have all been dominant figures in their teams.

That's part of the problem though we don't have too many totemic players anywhere let alone at no8

 

[Jimbo]

Yeah honestly quite like the look of that. Think I'm right in saying that after 13 caps this will be Earl's first start so very curious to see how he does with (hopefully) a full 80 mins.

Problem the way I see it is players sometimes take soo long to get given a descent opportunity that when it comes round to it they try too hard and force it and really don't give a descent account of themselves and everything which they didn't do well is remembered and amplified whilst the incumbent is allowed to have possibly worse performances Robson & Youngs spring to mind, really hope this isn't another.

 

[kesh]

I think it is. They don't have to be huge, but there are some very position specific skills, particularly controlling and picking up the ball from the base of the scrum. Which, like any skill, is only honed through experience.

I miss the days when they forced a unit like Morgan to be fit and healthy. Having someone like him come on for Billy last 10min would be nice. Mass makes right.

 

[Smurfy]

I'd also say that Ardie is an 8 by now. 65 of his 69 starts since the 2019 RWC have come in that position. If that doesn't make him an 8, what does?

He is also a phenomenally dynamic ball carrier who has unbelievable footwork and leg drive after the tackle. Earl has a lot of his qualities, and tbh he is closer to the modern 8 than Vunipola. Earl does look a little bit underpowered for 8, and it is one position where inexperience can be brutally exposed especially if your scrum comes under pressure. Is he a worse option though than Vunipola? I'm not so sure.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Problem the way I see it is players sometimes take soo long to get given a descent opportunity that when it comes round to it they try too hard and force it and really don't give a descent account of themselves

Agreed.

Maybe partly through others misfortune, but at least Dombrandt got a fair crack of the whip. Borthwick ultimately didn't like what he saw and called it. Fair enough.

I miss the days when they forced a unit like Morgan to be fit and healthy. Having someone like him come on for Billy last 10min would be nice. Mass makes right.

Ah Morgan. What could / should have been. 31 caps and done at age 26.

Hope Mercer's exclusion is only temporary as we're looking for an easy to implement muscle game for the RWC. Not saying he should be our guaranteed first choice going forward (well actually I probably am although I do like T Willis) but he should definitely be part of any rebuilding.

 

[Jimbo]

Agreed.

Maybe partly through others misfortune, but at least Dombrandt got a fair crack of the whip. Borthwick ultimately didn't like what he saw and called it. Fair enough.

I am actually shocked to learn Earl is younger than Dombrant, my perception was he was a fair bit older and hadn't really been given a fair crack.

On a separate note I am still undecided if Dombrant much like Alex Goode, Malins (purely as examples) is great for club but can't quite step it up or is simply not able to excel due the Brand of rugby, with that said he has at times demonstrated a complete lack of ability to do the basics like catch a ball, considering Quins at their peek were playing some thing a kin to Harlan globetrotters is quite puzzling. The only consistently England have demonstrated this WC cycle is their inability to perform anywhere near our perceived sum of their parts.

It seems hard to conclude anything other than the English setup is somehow poisoned to the core and needs a dramatic overhaul at this stage.

 

[higgik]

I am actually shocked to learn Earl is younger than Dombrant, my perception was he was a fair bit older and hadn't really been given a fair crack.

On a separate note I am still undecided if Dombrant much like Alex Goode, Malins (purely as examples) is great for club but can't quite step it up or is simply not able to excel due the Brand of rugby, with that said he has at times demonstrated a complete lack of ability to do the basics like catch a ball, considering Quins at their peek were playing some thing a kin to Harlan globetrotters is quite puzzling. The only consistently England have demonstrated this WC cycle is their inability to perform anywhere near our perceived sum of their parts.

It seems hard to conclude anything other than the English setup is somehow poisoned to the core and needs a dramatic overhaul at this stage.

With Goode it definitely was the brand of rugby.
He is the one running the show at Sarries and, along with the return of Lozowski is why Farrell also look better in a club shirt.
For me, Farrell respects these two players and trusts them to make the calls for him. Goode is the play caller, as he has a great view of space and mismatches, that Farrell can then execute plays.
The main issue for England is no one, apart from Ford, who is brave enough to tell Farrell what play to run.

Wayching Sarries, when Farrell plays you can see he trusts those around him to see a play, and the reason Malins looks better for them. He is trusted to make the right call, whereas for England he is not.

As for Quins, the same applies, the players inherently trust each other, so the handling skills can be focussed on. For England half the brain is still thinking should I be receiving this pass.

There is a distinct lack of trust and understanding of game plans between players and coaches.

The cricket team are told, 'you are here because we think you are the best XI, so play like you did you get there, you don't become a bad player overnight and just learn from any mistake you make'.
Due to the cohesion in the Ireland team, the same happens, the ABs have the same mentality as our cricket team.
The England rugby team have tried to mould a set of players into the coaches game plan, rather than looking at the players and determining the plan then.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

On a separate note I am still undecided if Dombrant much like Alex Goode, Malins (purely as examples) is great for club but can't quite step it up or is simply not able to excel due the Brand of rugby, with that said he has at times demonstrated a complete lack of ability to do the basics like catch a ball, considering Quins at their peek were playing some thing a kin to Harlan globetrotters is quite puzzling. The only consistently England have demonstrated this WC cycle is their inability to perform anywhere near our perceived sum of their parts.

To be honest I don't buy the whole 'brand of rugby' excuse for Dombrandt at all. The likes of Savea, Doris, Alldritt, Valetini etc. could play whatever brand of rugby you threw at them and even if they didn't immediately excel at it you would still see them carrying hard, grinding out metres and making destructive tackles. Dombrandt flops into contact like a big fish (and has hands like a fish too). That isn't a 'brand of rugby' issue. He's an international back rower; at the very least he should be able to front up physically when things aren't going his way.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Personally I think Dombrant just couldn't cope with the pace/ intensity / pressure of international rugby. Call it what you will but like many before him, he just can't cut it at this level it seems.

The thing with Goode and Malins is the lack of pace. I don't think either should be in the international set up because they don't have the physical attributes at this level.

 

[Zed]

Chris Earl is starting, never heard of him. Just watched some footage of him skinning opposition backs. Pretty quick!

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Chris Earl is starting, never heard of him. Just watched some footage of him skinning opposition backs. Pretty quick!

Who is Chris Earl?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

To be honest I don't buy the whole 'brand of rugby' excuse for Dombrandt at all. The likes of Savea, Doris, Alldritt, Valetini etc. could play whatever brand of rugby you threw at them and even if they didn't immediately excel at it you would still see them carrying hard, grinding out metres and making destructive tackles. Dombrandt flops into contact like a big fish (and has hands like a fish too). That isn't a 'brand of rugby' issue. He's an international back rower; at the very least he should be able to front up physically when things aren't going his way.

I really like his running lines and wanted him to succeed. But he hasn't. He'll carry on doing the same old, fairly successfully, at Quins, but can't help wondering if the missing piece of the jigsaw might be couple of years in France. He also *looks* like the class of 15 where power was sacrificed for speed. Definitely sleeker than he was, but maybe under his natural fighting weight?