England v Wales

[Prestwick]

Mate the guy plays across the pack (lock, 8 and flanker) and has pace. I've seen it already several times this season.

Also for the backs you've forgotten about Cueto. This debate isn't about Ashton, we're all perfectly happy with Ashton.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 7 2010, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Mate the guy plays across the pack (lock, 8 and flanker) and has pace. I've seen it already several times this season.

Also for the backs you've forgotten about Cueto. This debate isn't about Ashton, we're all perfectly happy with Ashton.[/b]

Well you said I was being conservative. Sometimes your words ... they hurt! And you shouldn't be perfectly happy with Ashton - you should be f***ing delighted. Finally England has a world class winger to put Cueto/Monye/Strettle etc to shame. Just get him on the pitch!

You are deluded if you think Lawes can compete in the backrow at international level. He may be good in the premiership, but he doesn't cut it even at HEC level. He is one of nature's battering rams - simple as.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ye talk about all these changes for the Italy game but if ye start Ashton then that'd mean dropping a winger who doesn't deserve it as both were good today.

Like be realistic why would Johnno wana make big changes to a winning team????

On the Lawes argument, if anyone thinks he'd make an international 6, 7, or 8 that is mad.
Quinlan destroyed him in HEC so can you imagine what the French, Irish and even the Scottish back-rows would do in the games.

 

[Olyy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Feb 7 2010, 12:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Ye talk about all these changes for the Italy game but if ye start Ashton then that'd mean dropping a winger who doesn't deserve it as both were good today.[/b]

I'd replace Monye with Ashton, for that match anyway

In the long run it'll be Cueto who's replaced by Ashton, but Cuetos very rugby-smart and fantastic under the high ball and a good kicker as well and not really quick these, Monye and Ashton are more similar in playing styles both very quick/agile



The only reason i'd suggest Johnson should change the team is so he can see who can hold up at international level. Ashton, Hape and Lawes (he hasn't had proper game time anyway) haven't played for England, so he'll need to see if they can play well there. It'd be crap if they were only played when we were out of other players (i.e if Monye/Cueto got injured) and Ashton was put in the squad for the Ireland match, only for him to not perform. It's better for them to get game time against an easier opponent, with the more experienced players on the bench, to come on if the younger ones aren't playing too well.

 

[munstermuffin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Olyy @ Feb 7 2010, 12:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Feb 7 2010, 12:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ye talk about all these changes for the Italy game but if ye start Ashton then that'd mean dropping a winger who doesn't deserve it as both were good today.[/b]

I'd replace Monye with Ashton, for that match anyway

In the long run it'll be Cueto who's replaced by Ashton, but Cuetos very rugby-smart and fantastic under the high ball and a good kicker as well and not really quick these, Monye and Ashton are more similar in playing styles both very quick/agile



The only reason i'd suggest Johnson should change the team is so he can see who can hold up at international level. Ashton, Hape and Lawes (he hasn't had proper game time anyway) haven't played for England, so he'll need to see if they can play well there. It'd be crap if they were only played when we were out of other players (i.e if Monye/Cueto got injured) and Ashton was put in the squad for the Ireland match, only for him to not perform. It's better for them to get game time against an easier opponent, with the more experienced players on the bench, to come on if the younger ones aren't playing too well.
[/b][/quote]
But like Italy at Rome can be a very hard fixture to win at times.
Ashton is good enough to play as is Foden and them but make chages vs Italy and then reverse some against us and you could unsettle team.
Like in my opinion Tait can be a great centre but he's just been in and out of team like a yo-yo that he has no hope of settling.

 

[Olyy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Feb 7 2010, 01:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Olyy @ Feb 7 2010, 12:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (munstermuffin @ Feb 7 2010, 12:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ye talk about all these changes for the Italy game but if ye start Ashton then that'd mean dropping a winger who doesn't deserve it as both were good today.[/b]

I'd replace Monye with Ashton, for that match anyway

In the long run it'll be Cueto who's replaced by Ashton, but Cuetos very rugby-smart and fantastic under the high ball and a good kicker as well and not really quick these, Monye and Ashton are more similar in playing styles both very quick/agile



The only reason i'd suggest Johnson should change the team is so he can see who can hold up at international level. Ashton, Hape and Lawes (he hasn't had proper game time anyway) haven't played for England, so he'll need to see if they can play well there. It'd be crap if they were only played when we were out of other players (i.e if Monye/Cueto got injured) and Ashton was put in the squad for the Ireland match, only for him to not perform. It's better for them to get game time against an easier opponent, with the more experienced players on the bench, to come on if the younger ones aren't playing too well.
[/b][/quote]
But like Italy at Rome can be a very hard fixture to win at times.
Ashton is good enough to play as is Foden and them but make chages vs Italy and then reverse some against us and you could unsettle team.
Like in my opinion Tait can be a great centre but he's just been in and out of team like a yo-yo that he has no hope of settling.
[/b][/quote]
Very good point, constistence is not something Englands had in the last few years

Like it's been said in other threads, it depends whether Johnson is focusing entirely on winning the 6N, or thinking about the WC. If the WC then it's worth the younger guys getting a run out (especially Lawes, as Shaw is getting on in years, and if he decides to retire/goes out through injury, then Louis Deacond is next in line...)

 

[munstermuffin]

If he does it smartly he should blood them in slowly like 10mins off bench then 20mins or so then start and do it part by part not all together like majority of team today are young enough to be there for NZ 2011

 

[gingergenius]

I disagree (edit: but agree with Munster). England are not at the stage where you can throw in players just for experience. This England starting team, with or without Lawes/ Foden/ Ashton, has a massive amount of potential. But they've had potential for ages. What we need, more than anything else, is consistency.

Today, for example, saw a strong performance from 5-14 which ultimately won us the match. Now, there are players we'd all like to throw in to various positions but for now, we want to make sure we correct the negatives and build on the positives. If we can get a settled XV of players who all gel together and know what their role is, then it's less disruptive to try out some new faces.

The front row is a massive problem that needs fixing straightaway, because it could singlehandedly have cost us the game. It is clear that Wilson was absolutely beasted by James today. He was also **** in the loose. Dan Cole came on and helped fix the scrums; he also has a wealth of Premiership form. This is an obvious change to make considering that Wilson hasn't 'earnt' his place in the team yet.

The team I'd pick for Italy:

1. Matt Mullan (a risk considering he's unproven but he can't be any worse than Payne).
2. Hartley (his youth gets him another shot, though based on today Thompson deserves it).
3. Cole
4. Shaw
5. Borthwick
6. Haskell
7. Moody
8. Easter
9. Care
10. Wilkinson (Love to see Flood here, but more creative and dominant players around him bring Wilkinson's talents to the fore).
11. Monye
12. Flutey (A chance to get him back in to the setup. If he's poor, we can go back to Flood who was good today).
13. Tait
14. Cueto
15. Armitage (Very lucky to hold his place, but he's perfect for us if on form. Italy should be a good game to ease him back in... if not, it's open for Foden).

16. Thompson
17. Payne
18. Lawes
19. Armitage
20. Youngs
21. Flood
22. Foden/ Ashton

The bench is what is most important here. With how poor Italy are, England should expect to have the game closed off after 60 minutes. Then, there's half an hour for Lawes, Armitage, Youngs, Flood and Foden/ Ashton to come in and gain experience. If Mullan doesn't work at prop, we have Payne as cover who at least has some experience. Similarly, we know Thompson can help out in the scrums as well if Hartley's still poor.

If we can get into good habits and winning ways, then it will be so much easier for these guys to come in and do well rather than poorly, and then we have genuine competition for places, which is what drives a good team on to greater things - look at England 00-03, NZ always (especially 04-07), South Africa and Ireland now.

 

[Ozzay]

England were more clincal.
If Steven Jones looked up he would of seen Armitage lurking.#

Anyway, AWJ cost us the game simple as and Gatlands XV.

Coopers service was just as **** as Williams lineout throwing.

 

[Bullitt]

I assume now that the Welsh will stop pretending that AWJ is anything other then a complete donkey?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2010, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think Ashton has played the odd game at Center for Saints? Is that true?[/b]

 

[Bluemoon]

Now that I've sobered up and watched the highlights...

I know what AWJ did was very clinical and the yellow card pretty much cost us the game, but was it just a natural reaction? I cant see how he planed to do something so silly in such a short space of time. Very disappointing.

From a welsh perspective there were loads of positives. Firstly, I thought the Jamie Roberts-Hook partnership worked really nicely when they had ball and they should stick with that next game. The scrum went alright, even with Gareth Williams there and other than coopers silly kicks, we were running the ball at the right times.

However, the lineout was embarrassing, Huw Bennet will have to start next match. Also, we have now seen why Cooper isn't playing for the Blues and Rees is - I hope Rees starts next game because I think his delivery is much faster. Loads to work on, but I expected a Welsh backlash after this.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 7 2010, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I assume now that the Welsh will stop pretending that AWJ is anything other then a complete donkey?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2010, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Ashton has played the odd game at Center for Saints? Is that true?[/b]

Lolwhut?
[/b][/quote]

Three important points before rolling out the lolpears:

1. I said I think and asked for verification
2. I was quite drunk last night.
3. I was sticking up for Courtney Lawes and most of Northampton while you were out playing with yourself last night.

So n'yer!

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bluemoon @ Feb 7 2010, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Now that I've sobered up and watched the highlights...

I know what AWJ did was very clinical and the yellow card pretty much cost us the game, but was it just a natural reaction? I cant see how he planed to do something so silly in such a short space of time. Very disappointing.

From a welsh perspective there were loads of positives. Firstly, I thought the Jamie Roberts-Hook partnership worked really nicely when they had ball and they should stick with that next game. The scrum went alright, even with Gareth Williams there and other than coopers silly kicks, we were running the ball at the right times.

However, the lineout was embarrassing, Huw Bennet will have to start next match. Also, we have now seen why Cooper isn't playing for the Blues and Rees is - I hope Rees starts next game because I think his delivery is much faster. Loads to work on, but I expected a Welsh backlash after this.[/b]

I was impressed with the Roberts-Hook combo and that should be our centre pairing for the foreseeable future. It was still a stupid thing to do and professional rugby players should know better.

Cooper was poor and as soon as Rees came on we looked more dangerous and Williams is the latest in a long line of hookers who can't throw in straight.

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 7 2010, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 7 2010, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I assume now that the Welsh will stop pretending that AWJ is anything other then a complete donkey?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2010, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Ashton has played the odd game at Centre for Saints? Is that true?[/b]

Lolwhut?
[/b][/quote]

Three important points before rolling out the lolpears:

1. I said I think and asked for verification
2. I was quite drunk last night.
3. I was sticking up for Courtney Lawes and most of Northampton while you were out playing with yourself last night.

So n'yer!
[/b][/quote]

*

*Dellon Armitages face when under a high ball. That's satire.

 

[Thingimubob]

England were just more clinical and we never played with any conisistancy (only towards the end we did). Gatlands idiotic selection of Cooper was another reason too, makes no sense to pick an out of form player over a better playeer who's keeping him out of his club side. With Gareth Williams, I had a lot of faith in him before the game, have lost a fair bit of it now <_< Imo, we need Ken Owens in the set up, he's been one of the better hookers in Wales recently. Alun Wyn-Jones is a *** for getting carded, just no point in doing it, and I wonder if Gatland and Edwards will respond by dropping him to the bench/from the 22 as a lesson.

 

[Bullitt]

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[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Feb 6 2010, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Dylan Hartley - 4. Good throwing in, but went backwards in posession, and part of a rubbish scrum.[/b]

You really do hate Northampton players, don't you. Hartley had the closest thing he's done to his normal club form when the pack finally functioned. Not perfect by any means, but to give him a 4 then Borthwick (of all people) 8 out of 10 is ridiculous.

 

[Prestwick]

My view of Hartley was purely of his psychological..er..deficiencies which I feel after being tripped and mauled in a weak scrum to have been overcome. The guy did well in the loose and made ground every time he took on the ball mostly because he wasn't told to go up Route A every time.

Borthwick I felt was superb as well. Line out work impeccable and he did more work stealing the ball than Moody or Haskell most times! He could have screwed Wale's first attacking burst after the second half if he had not been pinged for that most heinous of crimes, trying to tackle the scrum half after the ball was out of the ruck. Borthwick was on the money but the referee sadly was not.

 

[Sir Speedy]

An improvement from the Autumn tests at least, in that we don't look absolutely ****ing inept in attack. Poor timing in regards to replacements from Gatland, and idiocy from AWJ potentially lost us the game. England took the chances that were on offer though, so well done to them.

To amplify the selections point:
Tom James.
TOM JAMES.
DKJHASIRHASITEHIHN

Additionally: nice to see Hook prove his detractors wrong. Best international performance from him in a while.

 

[bristol-iain]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Feb 7 2010, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

An improvement from the Autumn tests at least, in that we don't look absolutely ****ing inept in attack. Poor timing in regards to replacements from Gatland, and idiocy from AWJ potentially lost us the game. England took the chances that were on offer though, so well done to them.

To amplify the selections point:
Tom James.
TOM JAMES.
DKJHASIRHASITEHIHN

Additionally: nice to see Hook prove his detractors wrong. Best international performance from him in a while.[/b]

James proves the point that, no matter how well you do for clubs, you sometimes just won't be good enough to perform on the International stage. Shane and Leigh fo Scotland and get Krystian on the bench.