England v South Africa - 16/11/2024 (17.40)

[Leonormous Boozer]

O'Gara really emphasised that he won't leave his La Rochelle contract early - said contracts are a certain length and you should see them out

Would be absolutely amazed if he wasn't eyeing up the Ireland job after Farrell leaves (his contract expires at the same time as Farrell)

That will be the day I become French.

 

[McTallshort]

Well obviously. We're losing every match and performing poorly, you prick.

Who the **** are you calling a prick

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That will be the day I become French.

Always thought you smelt of onions tbf

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Who the **** are you calling a prick

My bad. I was annoyed at the performance, not at you. Silly comment from me

 

[Lé Ddanno]

My apologies Mctallshort

 

[West Country Wail]

I don't think M Smith has rugby IQ to be honest. He's the best gamebreaker in the game but game management is on the 10. Runners taking the ball into contact isolated, the midfield barely touching the ball in attack etc... is a symptom of someone not running the show effectively.

Kill the witch!

Be careful. The scary Quins fan will come and call you for not being a 'true fan' hahah

 

[IT157]

Good entertaining game. And,as I predicted,SA won

Really went out there with that prediction!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Is Steph Du Toit the best 6 to have played the gam

For SA probably. His just about edges Juan Smith for me. There's some pretty big names though elsewhere. I struggle to look past Kaino personally.

 

[Geordie]

For SA probably. His just about edges Juan Smith for me. There's some pretty big names though elsewhere. I struggle to look past Kaino personally.

Yeah maybe best ever was strong but hes right up there. Hes some player...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Etzebeth made a few mistakes yesterday but as ever was right in the thick of it, causing havoc. But I thought Snyman was outstanding, in the first half in particular he looked total world class.

 

[BPM]

Kill the witch!

Be careful. The scary Quins fan will come and call you for not being a 'true fan' hahah

I guess you must be very happy with the result given how much you wanted England to lose.

'Scary' eh? What are you scared of, someone challenging your opinions with a reasonable argument?

If you're not willing to engage in a debate, maybe don't write controversial statements that are there to be picked at.

 

[Geordie]

Smith just needs the right supporting cast....and a proper 12.

I've seen him put some brilliant controlling games In for Quins...so hes very capable. Just needs to be given the shirt and let him to it. Fin Smith off the bench...

Theres a number of players who haven't earned that shirt this Autumn...and aside from getting the defence sorted SB is going to to have to get his squad and match day team selection spot on for the 6n....

 

[BPM]

Look, winning teams take time.

People talk about beating the world champions like it's something that comes off a conveyor belt. It isn't.

The SA pack is unquestionably the best in the world and we fell short- unsurprisingly.

Crisis is when you're getting your arse handed to you by these guys. We've come pretty close for 3 weeks. We don't have a right to beat them - it has to be earned. We're in the ballpark- it's small percentages we need and those take time and also take lessons being learned.

Borthwick has been "sackable" since game one because he's unfashionable. Not a big name. Bit of a nice guy. People still associate him with that poor period in the mid 2000s. Yet he was also forwards coach that took us to a WC final in 2019 was he not?

We've lost two key coaches along the way this autumn (granted I'd like to understand the reasons why and whether that lays at SBs door), and we lack on field leadership at key times. These lads will grow from this.

I don't accept the defeats, I certainly wouldn't accept mediocrity or poor mentality. But this is, whether you like it or not, a cycle built towards WC 2027. And we're not in an awful position.

Can we suddenly become a champagne rugby team that dominates with a different coach? I'm not convinced.

Ireland are also looking pretty sticky this autumn- should they sack Farrell?

There's being short against the best and there's crises- this is the former not the latter for me.

Lose against Wales or Italy in the 6N and then we would be in a crisis.

Overall this is where I'm at. I'm not a fan of Borthwick or how we're playing but I don't see obvious and available alternatives and I'm also not totally sure a different coach achieves wildly different results.

My main issues are how often we repeat the same mistakes. For example, one out forward runners without anyone on their shoulder for a tip on or a quick clean out are so easy to defend and ripe to be tuned over. I'm not even sure who is responsible for that? It's such a basic thing that I can't believe the players aren't identifying it themselves?

Smith is getting the same old tired criticism of 'game management' or lacking 'rugby IQ', but what kind of platform is he getting? From what I see, he often has to react instinctively because our scrum was creaking and the defence is already up in his face or because he's just received a loopy pass from the 9 (JvP was gash). While I rate Finn Smith, I strongly question whether he would have done any better over the past 3 games and I'm certain some of the better moments we've had wouldn't have happened without Marcus on the pitch.

 

[Jimbo]

Couldn't watch the game live, just watched the highlights, I'm not the biggest Steward fan at the best of times, he is defensively so bad, I know the SA wingers consistently make defenders look silly but that second try is unforgivable he has to nail him man and ball, if he wasn't so bloody slow he'd have made the tackle as the ball was caught making it almost impossible to concede the miss tackle. Starting to wonder if England are actually as bad as most think (myself included), I mean we've narrowly been defeated multiple times, sometimes losing becomes a habit, I'd like to say a win could change fortunes but then beating Ireland in the 6N didn't do that so I guess not. Great to see undehill back and looks to be as destructive as ever, it's not really a suprise, I just don't get all the negative criticism about M Smith, sure he makes some errors but England look devoid of anything in attack without his involvement, if England could sort out their centres, and front row that IMO would go a huge way to bridging what at times appears a huge gap, get a couple of bigs wins and some belief and England could enter the top 4 conversation.

 

[BPM]

Can anyone tell me why Genge gets a free pass for being consistently poor? He's supposedly a big leader in the squad but is one of the worst culprits for failing to deliver on pretty much every front. Any evidence of him being a dominant scrummager has gone, his carrying and hands aren't much good at the moment and his positioning in defence has been highly suspect.

Will Stuart always cops a lot of flak, but Genge seems to get very little despite being a more prominent member of the squad. I don't get it.

 

[Jimbo]

Can anyone tell me why Genge gets a free pass for being consistently poor? He's supposedly a big leader in the squad but is one of the worst culprits for failing to deliver on pretty much every front. Any evidence of him being a dominant scrummager has gone, his carrying and hands aren't much good at the moment and his positioning in defence has been highly suspect.

Will Stuart always cops a lot of flak, but Genge seems to get very little despite being a more prominent member of the squad. I don't get it.

Yeah it's an odd one you'd almost expect it to be the other way round Stuart we know is a bit limited and uninspiring in the loose, where as Genge can be great (not so much recently) so you'd understand it that way around.

 

[Wasps92]

Can anyone tell me why Genge gets a free pass for being consistently poor? He's supposedly a big leader in the squad but is one of the worst culprits for failing to deliver on pretty much every front. Any evidence of him being a dominant scrummager has gone, his carrying and hands aren't much good at the moment and his positioning in defence has been highly suspect.

Will Stuart always cops a lot of flak, but Genge seems to get very little despite being a more prominent member of the squad. I don't get it.

Yeah he's so overrated. Steward was hopeless for the first try but the 9 went past Genge like he wasn't there in the first place.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Can anyone tell me why Genge gets a free pass for being consistently poor? He's supposedly a big leader in the squad but is one of the worst culprits for failing to deliver on pretty much every front. Any evidence of him being a dominant scrummager has gone, his carrying and hands aren't much good at the moment and his positioning in defence has been highly suspect.

Will Stuart always cops a lot of flak, but Genge seems to get very little despite being a more prominent member of the squad. I don't get it.

I think there are plenty here who have been a bit underwhelmed for a while. But with Marler gone there's not really anyone else. Baxter has potential but clearly some way to go yet. But point well made.

Stuart conceded some pens yesterday but overall has probably taken some steps forward this Autumn.

At the risk of getting into sacred cow territory we can ask the same of George. He makes his tackles and for the most part his set piece is OK, but in other teams the hooker has become a real point of difference player - Sheehan's running with ball in hand, Marx's work over the ball or whatever. It kind of feels George is doing the same as 7 or 8 years ago when he probably was one of the best in the world. From being totally indispensable he's now only playing 50 which probably says that the coaches know his legs aren't what they used to be. The skipper should be a totemic player and I just don't think it's a good look for them to be hauled off so early. Plus it means that we've got to have another good captain and I'm not seeing that yet. George has done enough to go out on his own terms and I hope he does that after the 6N.

 

[BPM]

On here, yes, but from a wider perspective he seems to be pretty much immune to criticism despite being one of our worst players this Autumn (in my estimation). In any media review, he usually gets pretty kind scores too.

Stuart quietly goes about his business and while his scrummaging is not elite level, the rest of his game is very solid. I think he's underrated. Genge is noisily stinking the place out.

I agree Baxter isn't ready to be the starter yet, but he was better in NZ than Genge has been in the AIs.

 

[OllyM97]

My patience is wearing very thin after yesterday. South Africa were very average and tried everything they could to let us back into that game. I'm fed up of people fawning over the opposition when we lose. That 10 minutes when we had the man advantage was just embarrassing. How many times did we get turned over at the ruck?. Why were we still still going with one out runners when the space was clearly on the outside?. Where is the deception in our attack - there isn't any. Our bench yet again offered virtually nothing, we've got the worst bench of any of the big sides. I'm not having the "it was the World Champions" rubbish, there should be accountability for a performance like that - we should have won that game, they were there for the taking. If we actually had a coherent plan on how to attack we win that game definitely. How can you be so poor in attack after 20 odd games?. Game after game we fade in the final quarter and yet we put the same players on the bench every week. It's just absolutely shambolic. Borthwick has had 27 games and won 13 - against Wales (x3), Italy (x2), Argentina before Contepomi (x2), Japan (x2), Chile, Samoa, Fiji and Ireland. Bar that one-off against the Irish he's lost every game against good sides. If we were playing the Pumas next week we'd get beat 100%.

Last but not least, how atrocious was our defence yesterday?. Every try that the Boks scored was completely gifted by us. The Williams and both Kolbe ones were absolutely hideous defence that Amateur players would be disappointed about. If you can't defend properly and you can't make good reads under pressure then you shouldn't be an international player. As for the charge-down try - pathetic. Etzebeth had a field day yesterday.

Anyway onto the 6N where we'll finish 3rd or 4th but don't worry because we're "getting there". Shambles.