England v South Africa - 16/11/2024 (17.40)

[West Country Wail]

Truth be told I want to see that. If we don't get rid of this god awful coaching set-up before the 6N then it's another mid-table finish. 7/8th in the rankings and a less than ideal WC grouping. What a waste of time.

 

[TopTen2003]

I like the back row starting balance I think. Underhill and CCS are going to have to be very, very good for us to stand a chance though. I probably put Martin alongside them too- those are the three hitters as it were. Thought Itoje had a great game in loose against NZ and we need that tomorrow to help us somehow gain yardage against the fearsome Bok pack.

Fear the worst a bit in the scrum and lineout- if they go AWOL it could be a very long afternoon. That said, Scotland managed some lineout disruption last week. (That probably means the Boks are perfect this week though!)

Expect us to hammer the high ball and kick chase at them and we will need to contest those incredibly successfully I think to give us field position.

Feel for Borthwick a tiny bit (I know that's not reciprocated across the forum!) - we've shown improved levels of form IMO since his baptism of fire in his opening 6N. Close games against France (away), NZ (away x 2 and home), and Australia (home), plus a home win against Ireland- suggests we aren't a million miles off.

I do fear though that a comprehensive beat down on Sat might leave him under the cosh.

 

[Reiser99]

I like the back row starting balance I think. Underhill and CCS are going to have to be very, very good for us to stand a chance though. I probably put Martin alongside them too- those are the three hitters as it were. Thought Itoje had a great game in loose against NZ and we need that tomorrow to help us somehow gain yardage against the fearsome Bok pack.

Really? We have no natural jackler. Earl hasn't looked like winning a penalty at all and CCS and Underhill are big hitters.

 

[spartan32]

So generally the feeling seems to be we don't stand a chance, and a thumping is on the way, but that doesn't seem very fare when we look at how England have done in the last few games. Sure they weren't victories, but they were all very close, and apart from Australia (where we seemed to totally lose are way, probably due to yet another coaching shift which can't help the lads), they were all top quality sides at the peek of their game. Also not many come away winners when playing NZ at home, so it's not like we're a miles off it coming together. Yes it's frustrating that we keep missing by inches, but at least we're aren't getting thumped every weekend.

On that note we have every chance of wining today. The team selected seems sensible given the threats posed, and we have some excellent players on the pitch who, on their best day, can beat this SA team, and to beat the best in the world it always had to be your best day. The crowd need to get behind the lads today, and they need to get proper fired up, show some real guts and pull no punches (SA won't). Put some big markers down, big hits early on, show SA there are no soft shoulders to exploit. Force them to play, to have to think, and be above all we have to be relentless for the full 80.

Feels a little like this could be a watershed moment for England. Put SA away today and demonstrate we can turn over the very best, at Theo top of their game, with all their greats in the field, that's a statement and something we can build on. Miss again, or worse l get thumped, and I fear that we create a glass ceiling for ourselves that may be hard to break.

 

[TopTen2003]

Really? We have no natural jackler. Earl hasn't looked like winning a penalty at all and CCS and Underhill are big hitters.

I kind have had Earl down in my mind as that but to be fair you are right we haven't seen that from him this Autumn. I'm probably just thinking too much from the tackling POV and perhaps I'm just over pleased that we've got Underhill there.

Just a side thought whilst typing this- With CCS, Underhill and Martin - does that give Itoje more chance to get over the ball?

 

[BPM]

Truth be told I want to see that. If we don't get rid of this god awful coaching set-up before the 6N then it's another mid-table finish. 7/8th in the rankings and a less than ideal WC grouping. What a waste of time.

Really? Then I'd have to question what kind of 'fan' you are then TBH.

I understand you want it because you feel it might force change but I don't think a true fan ever actively wants their team to lose. You may not like the coach but does that also extend to the players?

Even if we lose (which I expect us to), there is simply no way Borthwick & Co. will be let go before the 6 Nations. Zero chance of that happening.

I am as frustrated as anyone but ultimately, we have to be realistic. The group will be in place for a while yet. They shouldn't be learning on the job but it's where we are right now and we need to be hoping for improvement not baying for blood. The defence has looked all at sea, but given the debacle with Felix Jones, that isn't really surprising. I don't really think it's fair to dismiss El-Abd after 2 games and minimal preparation. There's blame to be cast, but I'm not sure it should be going in his direction. Attack is a weird one. It showed signs of looking good in NZ and then has reverted back to being poor in this block. Losing Mitchell is a factor but Wigglesworth does feel over-promoted when he hasn't delivered.

I am gutted at how poor we've been and I'm thoroughly unconvinced by Borthwick but I support the team and will never wish for them to lose.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Really? Then I'd have to question what kind of 'fan' you are then TBH.

I understand you want it because you feel it might force change but I don't think a true fan ever actively wants their team to lose. You may not like the coach but does that also extend to the players?

Even if we lose (which I expect us to), there is simply no way Borthwick & Co. will be let go before the 6 Nations. Zero chance of that happening.

I am as frustrated as anyone but ultimately, we have to be realistic. The group will be in place for a while yet. They shouldn't be learning on the job but it's where we are right now and we need to be hoping for improvement not baying for blood. The defence has looked all at sea, but given the debacle with Felix Jones, that isn't really surprising. I don't really think it's fair to dismiss El-Abd after 2 games and minimal preparation. There's blame to be cast, but I'm not sure it should be going in his direction. Attack is a weird one. It showed signs of looking good in NZ and then has reverted back to being poor in this block. Losing Mitchell is a factor but Wigglesworth does feel over-promoted when he hasn't delivered.

I am gutted at how poor we've been and I'm thoroughly unconvinced by Borthwick but I support the team and will never wish for them to lose.

I can see both sides of this.

Ultimately I want a successful England team consistently challenging for ***les and playing good rugby. I don't think the current set up can deliver this even if by the law of averages there'll be the odd good day along the way.

Chances are we'll be 1/4 from these AIs. Another mid table 6N on top would make SB's position pretty close to untenable. Sometimes you genuinely have to take steps back to go forward, although even if SB did go I have precisely no confidence in the RFU to get his replacement right.

Its been a total soap opera over the last few years which I think has meant the team has lost a bit of connection with some of the fan base. For me, I used to get pretty ****** off when Eng lost. Now I just wait for the next calamity and laugh.

But I particularly feel for those who shell out a couple of hundred quid for a ticket and probably hundreds more on travel, food, drink, the latest shirts etc. Given our player base and resources they have a right to expect better.

 

[BPM]

I can totally relate to the frustration and disappointment. I'm no different, but actively wanting the team to lose is a another thing entirely.

 

[Saintjay]

Surely SB is measured and has realistic targets. It's what most have in there day job. Maybe he's convinced the RFU we are not at top 4 team and being best of the rest is the target.

Some of us gave our Autumn predictions on what sucess looks like. Potentially going 1\4 isn't it.

He's one year to prove something. Or then we possibley go back to square one with a new coach and arguing that we have to give the new bloke time and he's building. Maybe not the 27 world cup but the next one, and around we go.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I can totally relate to the frustration and disappointment. I'm no different, but actively wanting the team to lose is a another thing entirely.

Depends how many Gloucester players are in the side, for me

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I can totally relate to the frustration and disappointment. I'm no different, but actively wanting the team to lose is a another thing entirely.

It is. Although to be fair I found myself wanting that so we could be shot of Jones.

 

[McTallshort]

If England lose today it will make absolutely no difference to the lives of anyone here same if they win.

If you love Rugby and want to be entertained then the results are of little consequence. Of course I would love to see England beat SA but if they don't they don't, I'm more bothered about the performance.

I think people forget why they go and watch rugby and there is this feeling that just because we are England fans then we are some how owed something by the England team. We aren't, get over yourself.

 

[Reiser99]

Surely SB is measured and has realistic targets. It's what most have in there day job.

That would imply the RFU is run by competent people.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

I just cant see anything other than a heavy SA win....a big margin.

Then Japan will scent the blood....

Yup

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

I worry about George Martin's fitness. He seems to be one of those players that spends most of his career injured.

 

[Saintjay]

It's not winning that matters It's the taking part that counts

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If England lose today it will make absolutely no difference to the lives of anyone here same if they win.

If you love Rugby and want to be entertained then the results are of little consequence. Of course I would love to see England beat SA but if they don't they don't, I'm more bothered about the performance.

I think people forget why they go and watch rugby and there is this feeling that just because we are England fans then we are some how owed something by the England team. We aren't, get over yourself.

If I want to be entertained I'll watch NZ v Fra where I have no vested interest and the result is of no consequence to me.

But I am English and support England which means I do have skin in their games and the outcome of them.

And every time you put your hand in your pocket to buy a ticket or a replica shirt you are financially supporting that team. So, yes they do owe you. Unlike a club team which can be a matter of choice, your national team is also representing you.

If all you want from your rugby is to be entertained that's fine. We each take out of it what we want. But for most the results do matter especially for 'fans' which is an abbreviation for fanatics who don't tend to be neutral on results.

 

[Saintjay]

 

[jordiev]

On that note we have every chance of wining today. The team selected seems sensible given the threats posed, and we have some excellent players on the pitch who, on their best day, can beat this SA team, and to beat the best in the world it always had to be your best day. The crowd need to get behind the lads today, and they need to get proper fired up, show some real guts and pull no punches (SA won't). Put some big markers down, big hits early on, show SA there are no soft shoulders to exploit. Force them to play, to have to think, and be above all we have to be relentless for the full 80.

I mean I strongly disagree… we picked a team expecting a peppering in the kick game but SA picked a free flowing team with rapid wings who will be licking their lips at the thought of catching steward on the turn. If this was SA's selection last week sure, but they have essentially said they are going more Tony brown today than their traditional tactics which this team is selected against.

They eat our pack, they will eat our scrum and their back selection is literally tailor made to hit our selections weaknesses.