England v New Zealand - 2 November 2024

[McTallshort]

But we're talking about culture. It's part of their tradition and history is it not. I mean, even from a rugby sense it's been going for longer than we've had world cups FFS. By rugby terms that a pretty long time.

England fans don't like it because…… actually I don't really know why.

It's part of history and tradition in the same way England singing Swing low sweet chariot is a rugby tradition. The Haka was always a bit of a joke and a laugh at the start of NZ away matches. The Haka in it's current form being performed at Rugby game has no historical or traditional about it.

Joe Marley has actually faced the Haka and is absolutely entitled to voice and opinion on it. People either want freedom of speech or they don't

 

[Welsh Exile]

I don't think calling to bin it from World Rugby is insensitive either, it's not part of a match and wouldn't be a part of the game but for the eyes it gets on it. Soccer don't allow it and no one bats an eye. And it's not like Marler is saying that Maoris the world over shouldn't be allowed to do a haka.

Forming this opinion right now, having never really tgought about it before, but I think it should be the home teams call as to whether it goes ahead and it shouldn't be part of world cup games or future neutral fixtures if they exist in the world league yoke.

Pie in the sky stuff but I think its a nonsense that opposition teams have to consider haka or equivalent in a week leading up to a game against a handful of specific teams.

Equally, I think this was stupid from Marler. Can't see his teammates thanking him for giving NZ some extra fuel.

I think calling the Haka ridiculous is insensitive, now without the quote or comtrxt it's hard to say but the implication is that the Haka itself is ridiculous.

I'm not against your home idea, I'd like that to be applied to the millennium stadium roof, the only debate more boring and tedious than this one.

 

[Welsh Exile]

It's part of history and tradition in the same way England singing Swing low sweet chariot is a rugby tradition. The Haka was always a bit of a joke and a laugh at the start of NZ away matches. The Haka in it's current form being performed at Rugby game has no historical or traditional about it.

Joe Marley has actually faced the Haka and is absolutely entitled to voice and opinion on it. People either want freedom of speech or they don't

What's this freedom of speech ******** coming from. Who's been saying he's not allowed to say it?

Why would you like to see it abolished (in a rugby sense obviously)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Genuine question.

The haka has Maori origins. Māori or Māori descendants are a minority. Presumably the hakas are done with Māori agreement, but do all Māori feel that way? Do non Māori players feel comfortable doing them? Do all Kiwi fans feel that it represents them? When did it cross over into being representative of NZ as a whole?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

England could do morris dancing, but to be frank it's a tad ****.

But I'd pay good money to see it.

And just to add, this is a rule created to make what is unfair seem not unfair.

Celtic Warriors used to stand naked before battle, let us cook.

I think calling the Haka ridiculous is insensitive, now without the quote or comtrxt it's hard to say but the implication is that the Haka itself is ridiculous.

I'm not against your home idea, I'd like that to be applied to the millennium stadium roof, the only debate more boring and tedious than this one.

I'm no fan of Marler, very much of the opinion that mental health issues isn't an excuse to be a dick, but I think it's fair to presume he meant it's ridiculous before a rugby match.

Agreed on the roof. If we decide to open it in February while I'm there, I'll be raging. Don't think the influence on conditions is an argument either with the prevalence of plastic pitches in the club game.

 

[Welsh Exile]

And just to add, this is a rule created to make what is unfair seem not unfair.

Celtic Warriors used to stand naked before battle, let us cook.



I'm no fan of Marler, very much of the opinion that mental health issues isn't an excuse to be a dick, but I think it's fair to presume he meant it's ridiculous before a rugby match.

Agreed on the roof. If we decide to open it in February while I'm there, I'll be raging. Don't think the influence on conditions is an argument either with the prevalence of plastic pitches in the club game.

I could get behind that argument a lot more than saying it's ridiculous itself but it's not like they've just started doing this. It's been decades now. But even then I really don't get why or any reasoning behind it other than I don't like it.

 

[McTallshort]

What's this freedom of speech ******** coming from. Who's been saying he's not allowed to say it?

Why would you like to see it abolished (in a rugby sense obviously)

The Haka? I don't want to see it abolished but it's grown bigger than what it was and saying you should be able to front up to it shouldn't be controversial.

Like I said earlier, 30 odd years ago it was a bit of entertainment before a game now it's become this super precious event. Not only before every NZ game but before any game that involves and international side and a NZ side and to play the whole culture and tradition card is a bit disingenuous given most of the NZ side (plus the provincial sides facing say the Lions) are not actually Maoris.

If he had said before an England v NZ Maori game then yes you would be absolutely correct.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I could get behind that argument a lot more than saying it's ridiculous itself but it's not like they've just started doing this. It's been decades now. But even then I really don't get why or any reasoning behind it other than I don't like it.

Because he's specifically referencing the lack of response, and the Rugby League test where a response was allowed

 

[Welsh Exile]

Because he's specifically referencing the lack of response, and the Rugby League test where a response was allowed

So where do the ridiculous/in the bin comments come from? I guess it's hard to have a discussion about this when there isn't even a copy (at least that I've seen) of what he said.

If he had just said "I hate it when no one fronts up to Haka it's much better when people do" then cool. I'm taking issue with him saying it's ridiculous and needs binning off. Now, as @Leonormous Boozer said, if he just means it's ridiculous they have it in rugby matches and needs binning off from the game, again, that's not the worst thing in the world (it's certainly a lot better than saying it's ridiculous in general) but that is still different to just talking about the fronting up/response element.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Here's a screenshot of his original post.

It's a bit of a leap to think that he's talking in anything other than a rugby context..

 

[Welsh Exile]

Here's a screenshot of his original post.

It's a bit of a leap to think that he's talking in anything other than a rugby context..

Same post as well which explains a lot. Yeah, that's not that bad at all. I'll retract my insensitive comment and downgrade it to silly especially as no rationale or any kind of explanation around his thinking was given. Also silly that all it will do is **** off NZ which I'm all in favour of tbh.

My gut feeling, though, is that if he, and most England rugby fans were honest, his rationale as to why he thinks that might be somewhat insensitive, something along the lines of it's a stupid dance that has no place in rugby. But that's just guess work.

As I keep saying, though, I honestly don't know what it is about the Haka that really rubs people up the wrong way other than "I don't like it" or "they have one when we don't it's not fair"

 

[AlRums]

In terms of Rugby. Yes

You may want to rethink that, the original rugby haka was done in 1888. It was reserved for away games, but started to be used for home games in 1987.

History of the New Zealand Rugby Haka - All Blacks Experience

The New Zealand rugby haka was first performed by The Natives, our first representative team, during a 1888-89 tour of Britain & Australia. Learn more here.<br />

www.experienceallblacks.com

 

[AlRums]

Now the only thing I think is ridiculous and needs binning off is a load of white English rugby fans singing swing low.

Always the Welsh don't invoke Zulu when the they play SA

Men of Harlech, stop your dreaming
Can't you see their spear points gleaming?
See their warrior banners streaming
To this battlefield

Men of Harlech, stand ye steady
It can not be ever said ye
For the battle were not ready
Welshmen never yield

 

[Welsh Exile]

Always the Welsh don't invoke Zulu when the they play SA

Men of Harlech, stop your dreaming
Can't you see their spear points gleaming?
See their warrior banners streaming
To this battlefield

Men of Harlech, stand ye steady
It can not be ever said ye
For the battle were not ready
Welshmen never yield

my dad would love a moan about the horrible English and their warmongering ways and how the empire was disgusting and Wales was the first colony etc etc.

Then he would put on Zulu and say it was the best film ever made. He was as happy as a pig in **** watching that film. Good movie though, to be fair.

 

[McTallshort]

You may want to rethink that, the original rugby haka was done in 1888. It was reserved for away games, but started to be used for home games in 1987.

History of the New Zealand Rugby Haka - All Blacks Experience

The New Zealand rugby haka was first performed by The Natives, our first representative team, during a 1888-89 tour of Britain & Australia. Learn more here.<br />

www.experienceallblacks.com

Yeah 87 was about the same time England started singing sweet chariots. I saw the Haka at a Midlands v All blacks game back in the 80s at Welford rd and it was a bit of a novelty nothing more. It's become more of an All Black brand thing now.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yeah 87 was about the same time England started singing sweet chariots. I saw the Haka at a Midlands v All blacks game back in the 80s at Welford rd and it was a bit of a novelty nothing more. It's become more of an All Black brand thing now.

Midlands v ABs. What a time to be alive. That's awesome. Things were better back then.

 

[AlRums]

Way back when, I think 2006 or 2008 I was at Murrayfield for the Calcutta cup and Scotland had a bunch of people dressed up as extras from Braveheart on the pitch waving swords, shields and axes.

 

[AlRums]

my dad would love a moan about the horrible English and their warmongering ways and how the empire was disgusting and Wales was the first colony etc etc.

Then he would put on Zulu and say it was the best film ever made. He was as happy as a pig in **** watching that film. Good movie though, to be fair.

One of my favourites, that scene in particular. As a point of trivia Michael Caine only had 64 lines in it apparently.

The Welsh were a minority group there as welll

 

[Saintjay]

Always the Welsh don't invoke Zulu when the they play SA

Men of Harlech, stop your dreaming
Can't you see their spear points gleaming?
See their warrior banners streaming
To this battlefield

Men of Harlech, stand ye steady
It can not be ever said ye
For the battle were not ready
Welshmen never yield

Didn't they only win because an English man John Chard of the Royal Engineers was in charge.

Asking for a friend

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Apparently, there's a rugby match on Saturday. Anyone care to speculate on how that might go?