England squad for SA tour

[Teh Mite]

Re: Stridgeon - The Welsh still consider Henson one of the best players in the business. Yet that's clearly not been evident for the best part of the decade.

I suspect that's RFU propaganda that their staff are the best.

 

[Wilko's left boot]

A 42 man squad and still, with the possible exception of Fearns, no specialist 7. Is symbolic of the defence based game that England will play in S.A. or is it just there is nobody good enough. I think Saull would have gone if fit and Armitage too if playing in England. Surely Kvesic should have been fast tracked to tour and what happened to Seymour?

Is Kvesic a genuine 7? I thought I heard/read somewhere that he is really a 6 or 8, but has had to play at 7 because of injuries etc.. Then again, I could be completely wrong.

 

[Aedaphon]

Is Kvesic a genuine 7? I thought I heard/read somewhere that he is really a 6 or 8, but has had to play at 7 because of injuries etc.. Then again, I could be completely wrong.

From all I've heard he's a genuine openside- but he's still a developing player with no test experience. I can't see him being thrown from U20s/Prem into a full test against RSA.

Would love to see Seymour in the setup and I'm genuinely crushed about Armitage but at least we're looking to the future with a real 7 being included in the mix.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, Kvesic would benefit more from consistant game time for the u20s than maybe 20+mins from the bench vs the scratch mid-week sides in SA. He's broken himself anyway
I was under the impression he's a 7 who plays 8/6 to get more game time for Warriors (and to accommodate Nutley in the u20s) as well.
I'm a little more understanding of Armitage's exclusion now that I've realised the Top 14 doesn't finish for a while yet - if Toulon make the final he'll have missed all pretour training, all acclimatisation when they reach SA and the first test as well.

Gutted about Seymour, but I've made my point on him many many times before. If England don't want the best 7 in England playing for them, then that's their loss and we get him fully fit and raring to go for the start of next season! This is the video Sale Sharks put together when he won player of the season - it's a pretty crappy compilation to be honest and mostly shows him with a very severe concussion vs Tigers... But that turnover vs Bath about 30s in is textbook Two players on him right away yet he still comes away with the ball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ZUAx_xh4o

Re: Stridgeon - The Welsh still consider Henson one of the best players in the business. Yet that's clearly not been evident for the best part of the decade.

I suspect that's RFU propaganda that their staff are the best.

Nah, I meant in the S&C community - he's well respected as a S&C coach not just talked up by the RFU (though he inevitably is/was!).
He was also the head guy for the Lions, and everyone thought he did a great job then as well.

 

[racingmetrofan]

That's very strange as the guy in charge of England's S&C (Paul Stridgeon) is considered one of the best in the business.

I do remember hearing that post world cup though.

What's Cockerill got to lose by letting them assess Flood, though? He's still under Tigers training and rehab rule, they just wanted to see what's what with his injury.

I imagine Cockerill doesn't want his best 10 to be demoralized with Lancaster talking about omitting him from the England squad publicly just before the biggest game in Leicesters season...

 

[Peat]

On Matt Kvesic -

He is a very recent convert to 7; he played 8 for England U18s. I think the conversion might have been because he'll never grow big enough as an 8, but whatever the reason, he's taken to it like a shameless pervert to Bangcok. He has played a bit of both 6 and 8 this season; 6 to accomodate Charlie Walker for ENG U20s/Abbott for Wuss, 8 because Wuss ended up breaking all their other options. 7 seems his strongest position to me. He's never actually played with Nutley for the U20s, which is a shame.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ah, getting my facts mixed up there :lol:
Nutley was called in as injury cover for him, wasn't he? I knew they were linked together somehow.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I don't get everyones fasination with a '7', it all depends on what england want out of that type of player. I don't think england have used a classic 7 in a while. We have had moody, haskell, wood and now robshaw. None of them bad players, all good over the ball, all get turn overs (but thats not their main asset) and all good link men.

I understand the importance of a complete backrow but i don't think you need a specialt 7 as the only time you have a player playing that specific role is off a scrum. In open play the 6 and 8 should be getting turn overs, being link men just the same as the 7.


.....Now i'm not saying i wouldn't pick S. Armatige but i would look at the skills of robshaw and morgan and look at what we are missing to add to them. I personally think we need a hard nosed type of 6 who is a destructive tackler type...but thats just me.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We've been second best at the breakdown to every side with a 7 in an age, though.
Haskell has been the best 7 we've used of the "6.5"s, but still isn't a true openside. Balance in the back row is important, but ours isn't balanced with two 6s on the pitch (Robshaw is doing a job at 7, but really is just playing as a 6 to cover for Croft who is often hanging out on the wing/not getting stuck).
With Haskell back now, though, we should see more balance to the backrow - hopefully with Robshaw moving back to 6 and Haskell to 7 (I think Haskell is a better 6 than 7, however he's a better 7 than Robshaw).


I, too, think we're missing a hardnosed 6 *coughCARL FEARNScough*

 

[Peat]

Ah, getting my facts mixed up there :lol:
Nutley was called in as injury cover for him, wasn't he? I knew they were linked together somehow.

Billy Vunipola was. The only real link between Nutley and Kvesic is they're both fantastic young 7s.

Also... just no to Haskell at 7. No. He can't do it, and I'd challenge fairly strenuously the idea he ever has. His time in a 7 shirt for England was marked with frequently marked with packing down on the blindside. His play has been frequently marked by ruck inspecting.

I am with those who say to a certain extent the fuss over a 7 is overstated. Teams can do well with the 6.5 system. However, I would like the option. And Lancaster's publicly said he wants a more conventional openside. Why we didn't take along a young one to try out, I don't know. Well I guess we did in Fearns... I'd have liked Gibson as well.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Argh, I'll cry if they turn Fearns in to a 7, he's wasted there much as SO'B is for Leinster/Ireland.
Completely disagree with you on Haskell at 7, he's far superior than Robshaw at the breakdown, at jackling/getting on the ball and at clearing out.

 

[Peat]

Argh, I'll cry if they turn Fearns in to a 7, he's wasted there much as SO'B is for Leinster/Ireland.
Completely disagree with you on Haskell at 7, he's far superior than Robshaw at the breakdown, at jackling/getting on the ball and at clearing out.

Start crying. Apparently Fearns believes 7 is his best position from now.

Haskell's a better jackal its true, but there's so much more to being a 7. And he's not better at clearing out, both in technique and effort. We shall have to agree to differ on this I expect.

I would add that Lancaster has put a real emphasis on the clear-out for England and you can tell. Will be interesting to see what happens when he gets his hands on Hask, who should be devastating in this respect...

 

[Cave Dweller]

Fetchers have been nullified by the new strict applications at ruck time. Even McCaw got pinned a couple of times

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Start crying. Apparently Fearns believes 7 is his best position from now.

Really?!
I thought he said he preferred 8 but would play anywhere in the backrow that they (Bath) wanted him.

 

[Peat]

Really?!
I thought he said he preferred 8 but would play anywhere in the backrow that they (Bath) wanted him.

I am informed on this by someone I trust by another forum who spoke to him at a club dinner.

I'd rather he kept developing as an 8, but presumably someone's had a good chat with him about his future chances... in fairness, this was predictable from the moment he signed for Bath with their ton of 8s.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fair enough.
I suppose with Moody retiring early on, and (as you said) them having a few 8s knocking around it was inevitable that he'd end up there.
It's a shame, as he's far more effective at 6/8 than 7. There's still time for him to learn his trade at 7 and become a good player there, but he's already a great blindside/8.

 

[Feicarsinn]

If England can't find a decent 7, they should play two two 8's and a 5 in the back row. Averages out to 7 => balance.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If England can't find a decent 7, they should play two two 8's and a 5 in the back row. Averages out to 7 => balance.

6. Fearns, 7. Lawes, 8. Morgan

I wouldn't want to be an opposition scrumhalf, that's for sure.

 

[Aedaphon]

6. Fearns, 7. Lawes, 8. Morgan

I wouldn't want to be an opposition scrumhalf, that's for sure.

6. Robshaw 7. Armitage 8. Morgan

Now that's a scary back row.

 

[Wilko's left boot]

How much of an 'openside' is Wood compared to the others? Are his skills at 7 superior to those of Haskell, Fearns etc. ?