England Post-WC discussion

[Mattybuck]

I'm not going to quote as I don't wish to cause offence, but some people post some strange suggestions on here!

Always liked Croft and definitely a contender at 6, could be one of those players that has a storming few years running up to retirement.

His pace for a forward is electric.

Not sure we have anybody who is the finished article to slot in at 6. Croft could be an option while we look at a younger solution. May also be a good captain...

In other news Beaumont with another strong performance...

 

[Tim Owen]

I haven't delved to far back into this thread so apologies if this has been mentioned:
Englands lack of quality back row is surely an exceptional circumstance to allow Stefan Armitage to be selected?
I'm hoping the review will remove Lancaster and Co and have a head coach who realises to win grand slams, away games in the SH and RWC we need our best players playing.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Armitage had his chance to return and didn't.

Clearly England isn't a priority for him.

He is 30, would rather we have Kvesic a actual shot.

With the increased cap I wouldn't be objective if England were to go the 50 caps and 7/8 seasons playing pro in England route.

Give Flood a call up just to fuk off Armitage and Bendy.

 

[Geordie]

I haven't delved to far back into this thread so apologies if this has been mentioned:
Englands lack of quality back row is surely an exceptional circumstance to allow Stefan Armitage to be selected?
I'm hoping the review will remove Lancaster and Co and have a head coach who realises to win grand slams, away games in the SH and RWC we need our best players playing.

Im not sure we have a lack of quality in the back row. I think its about finding the right balance.

Robshaw is a class but limited player. You know what you get. As a 6 he is perfect. A non stop engine, tackler, lineout option, hits every ruck and despite what people say is very good at turnovers etc. Put him in with young Clifford, or Kvesic or Fraser and then it becomes a very potent flanker combo.

Get Ben Morgan back in top form and suddenly that's a back row to get at teams.

Ewers then can come into the fold and be looked at properly. Billy Vunipola etc

We have options...just getting the right balance and the right instructions.

Even Haskell...he's inconcistant for Egnland...why, when hes so good for Wasps.
Maybe its the job Englands asking him to do. Maybe give him basic instructions. Ie Don't mess about....carry like a rhino and tackle anything that moves. Simple!

 

[Crapspray]

With the increased cap I wouldn't be objective if England were to go the 50 caps and 7/8 seasons playing pro in England route.

Given the increased cap, I'd say the opposite is true: there's now very little reason for not playing in England.

£7 million per annum per club, plus two marquees, plus England pay as a top-up (what is it? about £100k per year?) versus £8.6 million per annum per club in France. It's unlikely they'll earn less.

Add in a very competitive league, with more expansive rugby being played, and slightly higher average attendance and what else is there to lose? European success? Maybe at champions level, but even then you'll only get that playing at two or three French clubs, who can only hire so many people.

That's even before mentioning the completely repulsive and horrendous nature of the French in any and all things.

---

Let's face it, one of the best ways to keep the rules in place is to have a successful England. The only reason Bendy and the like get to bleat is because Lancaster's England are a mess. Hire Rennie/Jones/A. N. Other, bring Kvesic and Fraser in at 7, play Ford regularly at 10, and play Watson/Brown at FB and the calls for Fatty, Flood, and Bendy will soon die down.

 

[Geordie]

Yes but you must have a limit in place on the number of foreigners in a side.

Maximum 4/5 in a match day squad for example. France is a great example of what happens when its not controlled.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Clifford - Where will he end up - 6 or 7 or does it not matter.

Really hope he sticks at 6 - think he could be like a beefed up Croft, with his 7s pace/vision.

Interesting to see Itoje being used more at lock - I've always thought of him as a 6 going forward but if he sticks at lock then he could be a natural replacement for the very erratic form of Lawes.

 

[Geordie]

Just checked the Quins website...I didn't realise Clifford was actually as big as he is. 6'3/6'4 and 17.5st. He could very well play 6.

 

[Raggs]

EPS pay is just under 100k for getting picked, there are 2 times a season that happens, so just getting into the 32/33 man senior squad can net you 200k, before any match appearance and win bonuses.

There's also a whole extra ton of 3rd party sponsorship rights I assume, that are written down as England, rather than the club, and therefore avoid being included in the cap (not that that may be an issue anymore).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Just checked the Quins website...I didn't realise Clifford was actually as big as he is. 6'3/6'4 and 17.5st. He could very well play 6.

He is more like 6'1 maybe 6'2 IMO.

 

[Mattybuck]

Someone earlier mention than we ignore the core skills a players has that are needed for their position.

For example Hookers need to hook and throw. If they can't do that then I question if they are worthy of a place in the EPS.

This goes for all positions, if they don't have the basic skill set then they should be told to go and learn it!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

R Gray 2.08, Charteris 2.06, De Jager 2.05, Retallick 2.04, Eztebeth 2.04, Whitelock 2.03, Douglas 2.02, Simmons 2.00, Itoje 1.95

Sorry, but I struggle to see him competing with, let alone ever dominating, these monsters (many are also significantly heavier). Especially if you pair him with Launchbury who's 1.98 and not exactly renowned for the line out.

Size isn't everything, but a good big one will always beat a good little un. For all Itoje's promise he'd instantly be on the back foot against say Eztebeth just through conceding 9cm and 7kg. Is he really so excellent as to regularly overcome that kind of disadvantage? Not from what I've seen. Parity might be the best we could expect and we need better than that.

At club level I'm sure he's fine at lock (& make no mistake where Sarries' interests lie) but as we've just seen, internationals are a totally different ball game. At that level his best chance feels like 6 at the moment and maybe even at 8 in due course.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

TBH his height should be fine.

Kitchener is 1.98m and 19 stone, and having met him and Whitelock there isn't that much difference IMO.

It's all about mentality.

 

[Geordie]

He is more like 6'1 maybe 6'2 IMO.

That's what I thought he was...

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Tigs,

Do you think Kitchener should be pushing for that England spot now?

Is it a case of who ever plays alongside Launchbury?

- - - Updated - - -

R Gray 2.08, Charteris 2.06, De Jager 2.05, Retallick 2.04, Eztebeth 2.04, Whitelock 2.03, Douglas 2.02, Simmons 2.00, Itoje 1.95

Sorry, but I struggle to see him competing with, let alone ever dominating, these monsters (many are also significantly heavier). Especially if you pair him with Launchbury who's 1.98 and not exactly renowned for the line out.

Size isn't everything, but a good big one will always beat a good little un. For all Itoje's promise he'd instantly be on the back foot against say Eztebeth just through conceding 9cm and 7kg. Is he really so excellent as to regularly overcome that kind of disadvantage? Not from what I've seen. Parity might be the best we could expect and we need better than that.

At club level I'm sure he's fine at lock (& make no mistake where Sarries' interests lie) but as we've just seen, internationals are a totally different ball game. At that level his best chance feels like 6 at the moment and maybe even at 8 in due course.

Richie Gray might be tall...but his smaller brother offers FAR more to the team.

Its not always about size. Yes it helps and a good big'un etc etc.

But Itoje has been impressive in the first few games ive seen him. Winning turnovers, winning steals at the lineout and very prominent in rucks.
Way more useful than Courtney Lawes is IMO.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yeh I think so but then again I am very biased.

I think he can run the lineout and provides a speed.

4) Kitchener,
5) Launchbury
6) Clifford
7) Kvesic
8) Morgan/Beaumont/Vunipola

19) Itojie
20) Morgan/Beaumont/Vunipola

That to me would be a very balanced lineup going forward not so much a now pack but in terms of eyes on 2019.

 

[Geordie]

I would agree, hes excellent in the lineout and offers much more about the pitch. As you say he's up over 19st aswell.

Im a big fan of Kvesic and would have him there...but I have to say ive been mightly impressed with Fraser this season who looks to be getting over his injury problem.

What would your pack be for the upcoming 6n?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

That's what I thought he was...

- - - Updated - - -

Tigs,

Do you think Kitchener should be pushing for that England spot now?

Is it a case of who ever plays alongside Launchbury?

- - - Updated - - -



Richie Gray might be tall...but his smaller brother offers FAR more to the team.

Its not always about size. Yes it helps and a good big'un etc etc.

But Itoje has been impressive in the first few games ive seen him. Winning turnovers, winning steals at the lineout and very prominent in rucks.
Way more useful than Courtney Lawes is IMO.

Even Gray minor is 1.98 and a few kilos heavier than Itoje. 1.98 seems to pretty much be the minimum these days - Launch, AWJ etc.

Totally understand where you're coming from, but I still think that his best chance of excelling at the top level is in the back row. Might be that he gets blooded as a lock, but we'll see.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I would agree, hes excellent in the lineout and offers much more about the pitch. As you say he's up over 19st aswell.

Im a big fan of Kvesic and would have him there...but I have to say ive been mightly impressed with Fraser this season who looks to be getting over his injury problem.

What would your pack be for the upcoming 6n?

Fraser like Croft needs to stay fit till Jan before being considered for England IMO.

My pack for this 6N's
1) Mullan (?)
2) George
3) Wilson
4) Attwood
5) Launchbury
6) Ewers/Robshaw
7) Kvesic
8) Morgan

16) Youngs
17) Vunipola (?)
18) Cole/Brookes
19) Slater
20) Beaumont

Won't happen but I feel that would be interesting,

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I would agree, hes excellent in the lineout and offers much more about the pitch. As you say he's up over 19st aswell.

Im a big fan of Kvesic and would have him there...but I have to say ive been mightly impressed with Fraser this season who looks to be getting over his injury problem.

What would your pack be for the upcoming 6n?

Working on the basis that the RWC conditioning was a cock up, I think Marler & Cole should be given the chance to redeem themselves. George to hook.

Launch and Attwood to lock.

Robshaw at 6, Morgan at 8 and Kvesic at 7, although could be very marginal if Fraser somehow stays fit.

Bench: Auterac, Hartley in case George's darts misfire, Brookes, Itoje and Beaumont.

Powerful front 5, balanced back row, reasonably experienced but plenty of new blood both starting and on the bench.

 

[Mattybuck]

I think Roko should get a shot for England...

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1230359376977906

That's Mike Brown he bumps off... I'd say that's no mean feat!