England Post-WC discussion

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Also talking of Locks thought for 14 mins cameo Barrow looked amazing.

strengthened up the scrum and made 6 tackles.

certainly one to watch.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

It's crazy that whe we talk about wanting a proper openside flanker there's pretty much only 1 England-based player who comes to mind as of suitable calibre, and that's Matt Kvesic.

Sam Jones - hasn't progressed at the same rate in the last few years as he did in his first professional seasons. Can get his hands on the ball but I think he strikes me as too tall for the ideal openside. Starting to see him more as a 6/6.5 if anything. Carries like an 8.
Luke Wallace - In Wallace lay my main hopes a few years ago for competition to Kvesic. Probably the best poacher in this list but really underwhelmed for the saxons
Will Fraser - haven't seen him play this season?
Jack Clifford - probably best if we see him as a blinside with something extra rather than seeing him as an underpowered openside!
Who else is on the right track?

The lack of depth here compared to, well, anyone, brings me back to an interesting point Raggs made over on drunkenwasps (rugnynetwork).
George Smith was penalised 5 times against Tiggers on Sunday, and 3 were because of nonsense refereeing of the breakdown. Raggs made a point that maybe we need to look at how the breakdown is officiated in the premiership and how it possibly discourages players from developing a focus on this aspect of the game.
In the wider picture, we need to think about our domestic competition and how this prepares us for the international game. If our doemstic competition prepares players in directions incompatible with the way the international game is played or officiated, then we've got a big problem on our hands.

 

[Geordie]

Did Barrow come on Tigs? I thought he was out till nearer mid December.

Ive told you before im absolutely gutted he moved on, but I totally understand why and he will probably fulfil his talent with you guys.

He is an absolute beast when he's fully fit and in form. And despite his size (weight) he is an excellent lineout man. You could have a few games with him and Kitchener at lock....now that would be not only huge but exceptionally good in the set pieces and loose.

- - - Updated - - -

Kvesic is class. He should absolutely be at 7 in the 6 nations.

However Fraser has had a lot of injuries. I know that Sarries have put him through a big summer operation to finally fix the issue. So far his performances have been very impressive...he's been owning the breakdowns and turnovers etc.

With him and Kvesic in there we'll be fine for genuine 7's.

I will say mind...whilst Robshaw is a 6...he could have played 7 well if we'd had a balanced pack where he could have focused on his 7 role. He is very good at turnovers etc.
Even McCaw would struggle in the current England set up. They want too many generalists / all rounders and not enough specialists.

 

[Peat]

So that's two very good players provided they are treated as blindsides and nowhere else. However, they MUST NOT PLAY TOGETHER!!!

I'm a dirty heretic, but I really liked Robshaw and Croft as a pairing for the short time I saw it and would try it again. It's completely unorthodox but at peak capacity it's a flanker pairing with everything bar crazy-good presence at the breakdown and maybe a smashmouth carrier. Happily both of our 8s are the latter so that balances nicely. Breakdown is a slight issue and I'd probably rather try it with Kvesic than Robshaw, but if Kvesic is unavailable, then there aren't a lot of options available playing in England...

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'm a dirty heretic, but I really liked Robshaw and Croft as a pairing for the short time I saw it and would try it again. It's completely unorthodox but at peak capacity it's a flanker pairing with everything bar crazy-good presence at the breakdown and maybe a smashmouth carrier. Happily both of our 8s are the latter so that balances nicely. Breakdown is a slight issue and I'd probably rather try it with Kvesic than Robshaw, but if Kvesic is unavailable, then there aren't a lot of options available playing in England...

Blimey you are, arn't you!
How about against Wales in 2013..?
I think it would require a remarkably dynamic number 8 to make that viable, imo. Someone who can contribute to the breakdown as well as the other stuff. certainly not Ben Morgan, and almost certainly not Billy Vunipola.
Possibly Nathan Hughes, if we can put the pink elephant in the room to one side...
(Dave Ewers)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Did Barrow come on Tigs? I thought he was out till nearer mid December.

Ive told you before im absolutely gutted he moved on, but I totally understand why and he will probably fulfil his talent with you guys.

He is an absolute beast when he's fully fit and in form. And despite his size (weight) he is an excellent lineout man. You could have a few games with him and Kitchener at lock....now that would be not only huge but exceptionally good in the set pieces and loose.

Yep came on for final 15 mins and looked brilliant.


RE 7's O'Connor will be here as well.

 

[Geordie]

Ill say again...if Robshaw was just to focus on the 7 job..not being an alrounder with Wood then things may have been different as I think he has the skills to do it.

Just seems to me the tactics are all wrong.

Likewise I wonder if Haskell had been restricted to a very basic role...tackle and carry and clear out rucks. I wonder if we might have seen the consistent performances that we do for Wasps.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Ill say again...if Robshaw was just to focus on the 7 job..not being an alrounder with Wood then things may have been different as I think he has the skills to do it.

Just seems to me the tactics are all wrong.

Likewise I wonder if Haskell had been restricted to a very basic role...tackle and carry and clear out rucks. I wonder if we might have seen the consistent performances that we do for Wasps.

I know what you mean but don't agree. I think Robshaw is already pushed to his limit against the competencies of a 7. The stats will show that he's usually the first one to a ruck and he will very often get his hand on the ball as would Warburton - the difference is he either lacks the strength or technique to hang in that position when under pressure. I also think 7s should ideally be that little bit faster than Robshaw - look at Cane, Hooper, etc..
I think robshaw could flourish alongside Kvesic.

As for Haskell, I think he could have been a great with Robshaws work ethic and if he wasn't such a gym monkey. That boat has left.

 

[Peat]

Blimey you are, arn't you!
How about against Wales in 2013..?
I think it would require a remarkably dynamic number 8 to make that viable, imo. Someone who can contribute to the breakdown as well as the other stuff. certainly not Ben Morgan, and almost certainly not Billy Vunipola.
Possibly Nathan Hughes, if we can put the pink elephant in the room to one side...
(Dave Ewers)

I know what you mean but don't agree. I think Robshaw is already pushed to his limit against the competencies of a 7. The stats will show that he's usually the first one to a ruck and he will very often get his hand on the ball as would Warburton - the difference is he either lacks the strength or technique to hang in that position when under pressure. I also think 7s should ideally be that little bit faster than Robshaw - look at Cane, Hooper, etc..
I think robshaw could flourish alongside Kvesic.

I said peak performance Robshaw and Croft were very effective together by the end of the 2012 6N and looked useful when Croft came on in the 2015 6N. Croft was rushed back too fast in 2013 and frankly the team wilted under so many things that the composition of the flankers didn't matter too much.

I think you underrate Robshaw's work over the ball in defence (and Croft's). Where Robshaw fell down for me was getting over it in attack, but that's not quite such as an issue when you've got a blindside as quick as Croft. One guy hangs around the 9 and hits everything that moves, one guy plays wider and acts as the auxiliary back an openside is meant to be in attack; it's the perfect combination. That the numbers on their back is messed up is slightly irrelevant. That we've got no one as good as the best at the breakdown is relevant... but it's pretty questionable whether we do anyway. Certainly we've beaten plenty of teams with this state of affairs and at their peak, Robshaw and Croft are solid citizens at the break down.

Ewers would be a fantastic addition to that unit, I'm going to steal that idea and pass it off as my own. It worked absolutely a-ok with Morgan in 2012 though and Vunipola's made big strides at the breakdown and it would work ok with him too. Maybe not against the All Blacks, but in terms of beating the rest of the 6N, it's got potential.

As for Haskell, I think he could have been a great with Robshaws work ethic and if he wasn't such a gym monkey. That boat has left.

Was anything ever wrong with Hask's work ethic? For my money the issue was always he never had the brain. In any case, I agree the boat has left, we could probably do plenty worse than pick him again but there's quite a few better now. Hopefully. With tiny bits of investment. Particularly as he seems to have lost his speed.

 

[Mattybuck]

Sorry but Robshaw is no 7 even with the best will in the world. While I think with some time back at Quins he could regain his potency at 6, he just does not have the instinct and technique.

Kvesic has been the most consistent 7 over the past few seasons, but Fraser has been the most impressive one so far this. For me it's a straight shoot out between those to in the run up to the 6N.

I think we have to learn the lessons of playing players out of position, and must concentrate on picking the best players with the most impressive core skills for each position. Not only does it work, it often stunts the development of players, for example how long did Brown disappoint for on the wing. No he is at FB he has been superb.

 

[TheSaffycen]

1.Mullan 2.George 3.Cole 4.Kitchener 5.Launchbury 6.Croft 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.Rokoduguni 12.Slade 13.Tuilagi 14.Nowell 15.Brown
16.LCD 17.Vunipola 18.Brookes 19.Itoje 20.Ewers 21.Simpson 22.Joseph 23.May

 

[Peat]

I think we have to learn the lessons of playing players out of position

That it's standard practice done by every rugby nation on earth and that we can expect the best possible England XV to probably include at least one player not playing in his club position?

 

[Tmartin995]

The lack of depth here compared to, well, anyone, brings me back to an interesting point Raggs made over on drunkenwasps (rugnynetwork).
George Smith was penalised 5 times against Tiggers on Sunday, and 3 were because of nonsense refereeing of the breakdown. Raggs made a point that maybe we need to look at how the breakdown is officiated in the premiership and how it possibly discourages players from developing a focus on this aspect of the game.
In the wider picture, we need to think about our domestic competition and how this prepares us for the international game. If our doemstic competition prepares players in directions incompatible with the way the international game is played or officiated, then we've got a big problem on our hands.

I think either Kay or Dallaglio made that point on Sunday too. I'd never really considered it, but when you think about it, it actually is true. Definitely something that needs to be thought about, guess it would be too late for a referee initiative to be brought in?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

1.Mullan 2.George 3.Cole 4.Kitchener 5.Launchbury 6.Croft 7.Kvesic 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.Rokoduguni 12.Slade 13.Tuilagi 14.Nowell 15.Brown
16.LCD 17.Vunipola 18.Brookes 19.Itoje 20.Ewers 21.Simpson 22.Joseph 23.May

Mullen hasn't a place above marler or vuinipola.

Brookes is out playing Cole and we need his carrying.

Robshaw at 6 instead of croft to steady the ship and he's a much better player than croft.

Ben Morgan as billy is broken.

Tuilagi is no way near ready for England duty, if JJ is out we should play hill and slade at 12 and 13.

A few left field picks but everyone seems to be in the mind that we need change.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Mullen hasn't a place above marler or vuinipola.

Why not? He's been playing noticeably better than both for a while now.
Mako has come into some real form over the RWC, but Marler has dropped off massively - would easily have Mullan in our first choice 23 now.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Why not? He's been playing noticeably better than both for a while now.
Mako has come into some real form over the RWC, but Marler has dropped off massively - would easily have Mullan in our first choice 23 now.

I've gone Marler as I think our RWC conditioning was wrong. But LH is up for grabs for the form player. Mako is only ever a bench man for me so Mullan it is if Marler's not firing. That assumes Corbs is out of the equation - easily the best of the lot at his peak. Wouldn't be upset to see Auterac given a chance from the bench either.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Much as I've been impressed by Joseph, one of my main hopes for the Six Nations is that Tuilagi gets some game time for England and regains at least some of his 2012-13 form. Been re watching a few of the highlights and he was a class act- one I don't think we realise how much we miss.

 

[j'nuh]

That it's standard practice done by every rugby nation on earth and that we can expect the best possible England XV to probably include at least one player not playing in his club position?

It's fairly standard practice to play a player in their secondary position, but it is fairly rare to play a player out of position. And even playing players in secondary positions is an iffy one. I'm comfortable with it when players regularly swap between their positions (like Slade swaps between 10 and 13), but I wouldn't consider, for example, moving May to fullback or 13 at this point. Positional familiarity is important. A couple of examples I seem to remember... Barritt is an excellent defender at 12, but at 13 he was taken on the outside because he blitzed (which is what he would have normally done at 12) when he should have drifted. Similarly, when Brown was on the wing, in a 2-on-1, he didn't run backwards and wait for support to arrive, but went into the tackle.

There's also the matter of whether a player is ever good enough in their secondary position to play it. Farrell plays in the centres fairly often for club, but I feel he lacks the skills there to ever make it as a proper international centre.

 

[Mattybuck]

Manu has to be a country mile behind JJ at the moment. JJ has an all round game that is superior to Manu.

Only a severe drop of in form for England by JJ would give Manu a chance.

I agree with game time, Manu is dynamite and would be an ideal impact sub for the backs.

60 mins gone, Ford/Slade/JJ/Roko/May/Brown have been at and then you bring on Cips/Manu/Wade/Watson

I'd like that...

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Manu has to be a country mile behind JJ at the moment. JJ has an all round game that is superior to Manu.

Only a severe drop of in form for England by JJ would give Manu a chance.

I agree with game time, Manu is dynamite and would be an ideal impact sub for the backs.

60 mins gone, Ford/Slade/JJ have run you tagged and then you bring on Cips/Manu...

I'd like that...

It's certainly appealing...

Joseph has been brilliant for England and is probably the better player, but within a likely current England team, I'd pick a top form Manu over a top form Joseph (the kind of selection dilemma which is far too rare for England).

In the current framework, I think Tuilagi would add more- think him running lines off Ford to either hit it up or look for the half break and offload to Watson, Nowell, May, etc, with Slade, Eastmond or whoever as another option to spread it wide.

This is all, of course, assuming he can ever get back to the form he was in pre-B&I Lions... Otherwise you'd have to be utterly mad to drop Joseph.

I'm sure Tigs Man will agree anyway