England Post-WC discussion

[Raggs]

Think Clifford has more to offer at 6 than Robshaw to be honest.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Seeing Marler, Hartley and Robshaw in the same pack feels me with a feeling of....painful mediocrity.

Think Clifford has more to offer at 6 than Robshaw to be honest.

Same.
Loadsa tackles, far better carrier, good in the lineout, better on the floor.

 

[Geordie]

Jamie George will probably start over Hartley.

Robshaw has a number of challengers for a back row spot.

Marler? Theres only Mullan or Mako. Havent seen enough of Auterac to see how far on he is.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I've been speaking to Andy Farrell and we have jointly agreed to start this team for the 6 nations

1 Haskell
2 ewers
3 robshaw
4 Tom wood
5 c Clark
6 burgess
7 Garvey
8 wray
9 croft
10 Owen Farrell (the chosen one)
11 fearns
12 barritt (best 12 ever)
13 Clifford

This will give the best attack ever, you only need 13 players as well by the way.

Remember defence is the best form of attack!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Mulland and Mako are both better than Marler, right now.
Auterac is as well.

If Marler can get back to how he was before then great, but right now he shouldn't be starting, or even in the 23.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How is Waller doing at Saints?

 

[Geordie]

Why has Marler gone so backwards...and indeed you can add Cole to that.

Have they been asked to do too much work away from the scrums? Are they expected to be too much like extra flankers?

Did having a lock pairing of Parling and Lawes take much of the power out of the engine room which in turn affected the front row. And did having Tom Youngs in there cause problems.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Blame England's conditioning team IMO.

 

[Geordie]

Do you think that's what it boils down to..conditioning?

I blame the tactics and the desire to have all rounders rather than specialists. Surely they knew that a scrum where the main engine room was Parling and Lawes was going to struggle!!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yep I do think it is down to conditioning for the props.

Lancaster wanted the fittest teams and props ever changed conditioner to the British cycling conditioner.

Cole and Marler both dropped weight IMO, esp Coke from what I have seen. Same thing happened to Corbs.

I'm sorry but the change from the 6Ns scrum to pre World Cup IMO proves it.

Going to Denver and grinding the players just did not work.

Cole is still not right at Leicester and Cockers has said the his conditioning needed changing.

 

[Geordie]

Ah I wasn't aware that Cockers had actually come out and spoke about Coles conditioning.

I do agree he looks like he has lost too much weight.

 

[Peat]

I think the theme from everyone is the best player in that position, so best openside, best blind side, best hooker who are the best because they do the basics well firstly.

I very vocally disagree with this statement and wish to see the best team picked, which is done by picking to a plan and/or philosophy and getting the best players in to fit that plan, and if that means overlooking the best player because he doesn't bring the right attributes or putting someone out of position into a different position they should be able to pick up, I'm a-ok with that.

I also find the basics first approach very old fashioned and prefer to pick for all-round impact. Or maybe I'd say people's ideas of the basics are very old fashioned.

Why has Marler gone so backwards...and indeed you can add Cole to that.

Have they been asked to do too much work away from the scrums? Are they expected to be too much like extra flankers?

Did having a lock pairing of Parling and Lawes take much of the power out of the engine room which in turn affected the front row. And did having Tom Youngs in there cause problems.

If sir would care to re-watch England vs France in the Six Nations this year and get back to me on the scrummaging of Parling and Lawes, that would be grand. While you're there, please look at the work rate of the props. Or anyone's props. Work away from the scrums is part of the basics these days.

 

[Irish boy]

Tom Youngs is too small be an international hooker

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Tom Youngs is too small be an international hooker

It's not his size that bothers me, as much as his inability to do the basics...which brings me back to Peat's post. I guess it all depends on your definition of basics, but there are certain things that everyone must be able to do and some that are position specific. Props that can't scrummage, centres who can't work an overlap, hookers that can't hit their men are failing in positional basics and will have to bring a huge amount else to compensate.

Many of the ABs are capable of individual brilliance - that's the icing on the cake. But the reason they've been so good for so long is that they do the basics better and more often under pressure than anyone else.

And I think Tigs Man is bang on about Cole and Marler's conditioning. Managing to depower one of our key strengths is reason enough to call time on this regime.

 

[Mattybuck]

Thing is it was some of the basics where England were found lacking.

Driving over the ball and winning a scrum penalty is fine, but you also need be able to hook channel 1 ball and release the backs... We are not capable of that.

Slowing down opposition ball was non-existent, and when we did try penalties were given away.

Our line out was ok but we had to pick the hookers mate at lock.

And so on.

You obviously need players to offer more than just basics, but they should be highly skilled at their core tasks.

We developed into scream of pseudo players, props that forgot how to prop but tried to win at breakdowns. A hooker who tackles like a 6 but can't hook!

Basics first, polish later...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I very vocally disagree with this statement and wish to see the best team picked, which is done by picking to a plan and/or philosophy and getting the best players in to fit that plan, and if that means overlooking the best player because he doesn't bring the right attributes or putting someone out of position into a different position they should be able to pick up, I'm a-ok with that.

I also find the basics first approach very old fashioned and prefer to pick for all-round impact. Or maybe I'd say people's ideas of the basics are very old fashioned.



If sir would care to re-watch England vs France in the Six Nations this year and get back to me on the scrummaging of Parling and Lawes, that would be grand. While you're there, please look at the work rate of the props. Or anyone's props. Work away from the scrums is part of the basics these days.

I understand what you mean about game plan but if a player can't do the basics it doesn't matter what gameplay you try and play.

So look at for example hookers. You make a list of players that can hit their darts, hook, scrimmage and ruck/ tackle.

Then depending on your game plan you whittle that list down via the extras like super strong in the scrum or super mobile.

At international level you need players that do basics and extra stuff

 

[Mattybuck]

I understand what you mean about game plan but if a player can't do the basics it doesn't matter what gameplay you try and play.

So look at for example hookers. You make a list of players that can hit their darts, hook, scrimmage and ruck/ tackle.

Then depending on your game plan you whittle that list down via the extras like super strong in the scrum or super mobile.

At international level you need players that do basics and extra stuff

Wholeheartedly agree

 

[Peat]

I understand what you mean about game plan but if a player can't do the basics it doesn't matter what gameplay you try and play.

So look at for example hookers. You make a list of players that can hit their darts, hook, scrimmage and ruck/ tackle.

Then depending on your game plan you whittle that list down via the extras like super strong in the scrum or super mobile.

At international level you need players that do basics and extra stuff

Are we looking for can hit their darts, usually hit their darts, or extremely good at hitting their darts? Ditto the other three? Given we have no one who is extremely good at all four of those given basics (yet...) which ones are you more prepared to compromise on?

I'd also add that in some cases, what I'd regard as the basics include skills where you *need* someone who can do it, but it could be anyone of a group of players. Ideally one of the backs is a strong kicking option off the opposite foot to the fly-half in open play - but that can be the full-back or either centre. One of the front row should be a very strong carrier and one of them should offer plenty of mobility and a big tackle rate - that could be any of them though. And so on.

I think my main issue is people try to reduce the list of basics to too small a list and are too forgiving of general rugby failings as opposed to positional failings. Excellence in the loose isn't a luxury - its a necessity.

 

[lynx54321]

Bizarre debate. Pick your best two scrummaging props, a hooker who can throw and scrum, two props who can scrum and jump in a line out preferably with one focusing on each of those aspects then your ferocious tackler, fast fetcher, big carrier backrow.

That's your absolute basics in the pack. A dominant pack in the tight should be a given for England and it lays down the marker to all other players. You're a prop who gets around the park like a flanker? Well unless you can scrummage better than the incumbent then you won't be getting in the first XV. You can scrum and get around? Now we're in business and building a world class pack.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah, but if a prop's getting mullered in the tight, he'll be too knackered to contribute in the loose and / or be giving away shed loads of pens. I don't care if my full back's got the greatest side step since Phil Bennett; if he's a liability under the high ball he doesn't get picked.

The days of one trick ponies like Jeff Probyn (what a trick tho) are gone. Everyone needs to be able to tackle and ruck etc, but there remain some non negotiable position specific skills. The reason people get on Brad Barritt's case aren't because he can't do the general tackling and rucking it's because he hasn't got the passing skills or appreciation of space that are the minimum requirements for a good centre.