England Post-WC discussion

[yaboyjj]

Itoje had another good game at lock- especially in the first half. Seems to be getting better over the ball (bagged two turnovers early on), stole a couple of lineouts and a few England internationals could learn something from his ruck clear-out work (good technique- is obviously a powerful guy though).

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How did the play offs go for Tigers last year?

On serious note I do want to Cips get some meaningful time at 10 for Eng...

I cant hear you from behind all these trophies what was that?????????????

IMO England need
1) A proper A league If a club cant afford it or don't have the squad to do it then offer place to a championship team (Leeds have a excellent youth setup)
2) We need a proper Saxons setup with the style of play to be similar to what the English head coach whats to achieve there is no point having the saxons play attacking rugby if England 1st team won't play it. Hopefully that will change anyway.

IMO those are 2 things that will help transition and are realistic and should be simple things to do.

It wont change results but it should be younger players more game time in front of coaches.

 

[Mattybuck]

I cant hear you from behind all these trophies what was that?????????????

IMO England need
1) A proper A league If a club cant afford it or don't have the squad to do it then offer place to a championship team (Leeds have a excellent youth setup)
2) We need a proper Saxons setup with the style of play to be similar to what the English head coach whats to achieve there is no point having the saxons play attacking rugby if England 1st team won't play it. Hopefully that will change anyway.

IMO those are 2 things that will help transition and are realistic and should be simple things to do.

It wont change results but it should be younger players more game time in front of coaches.

I'm glad you acknowledge our glorious past!

Hate to say it, but agree with the rest of your post...

In fact top clubs should be made to commit investment to academies... If serious money is put in, it will stop teams over looking young talent for a retired international.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Tom Croft stats so far.

3 games
Tackles made - 21
Turnovers Won - 3
lineouts won - 16
Lineouts stolen - 2

Have to say watching Croft play the last 3 games he is been alot more involved in the tight stuff.

Been really impressed with it TBH.

 

[Tmartin995]

IMO England need
1) A proper A league If a club cant afford it or don't have the squad to do it then offer place to a championship team (Leeds have a excellent youth setup)

I second that. Never understand why the A League only runs for a short period of time. Should run parallel to the actual league, would be a good way to a) bring youngsters into senior rugby in the set up they're likely to be playing in for several years, b) bring players back from injury without chucking them back into Aviva action and c) stop the chain of continuously loaning out player to smaller clubs.
For example down here, Exeter -> Cornish Pirates/Plymouth Albion -> Cornish All Blacks/Redruth -> Camborne etc. with lots of players not really playing for the club they're actually signed for, thus not playing in the same systems as they should be. The A-League would allow for a much smoother transition into first teams and a chance to experiment with players in a relatively risk free environment.

2) We need a proper Saxons setup with the style of play to be similar to what the English head coach whats to achieve there is no point having the saxons play attacking rugby if England 1st team won't play it. Hopefully that will change anyway.

The problem with this is that there aren't many fixtures about for them nowadays since the churchill cup has finished. Was there ever a six nations tournament for the respective sides' "a teams"? could potentially be beneficial to all the NH sides.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Tom Croft stats so far.

3 games
Tackles made - 21
Turnovers Won - 3
lineouts won - 16
Lineouts stolen - 2

Have to say watching Croft play the last 3 games he is been alot more involved in the tight stuff.

Been really impressed with it TBH.

Alongside the right player I'd be very happy to se Croft come back in. Worth remembering he's been part of some really poorly composed/balanced England backrows and I think he gets the most stick because he's seen as a dosser.

By the way Tigs man - Croft supposedly missed 3 tackles against Wasps yesterday

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I second that. Never understand why the A League only runs for a short period of time. Should run parallel to the actual league, would be a good way to a) bring youngsters into senior rugby in the set up they're likely to be playing in for several years, b) bring players back from injury without chucking them back into Aviva action and c) stop the chain of continuously loaning out player to smaller clubs.
For example down here, Exeter -> Cornish Pirates/Plymouth Albion -> Cornish All Blacks/Redruth -> Camborne etc. with lots of players not really playing for the club they're actually signed for, thus not playing in the same systems as they should be. The A-League would allow for a much smoother transition into first teams and a chance to experiment with players in a relatively risk free environment.


The problem with this is that there aren't many fixtures about for them nowadays since the churchill cup has finished. Was there ever a six nations tournament for the respective sides' "a teams"? could potentially be beneficial to all the NH sides.

1) Yep never understood it either it's would be better for lower league teams IMO and better for Premiership clubs IMO.
Leicester for example could have done a team of:
1) Djustice, 2) Thacker, 3) Hogan
4) Maksymiw, 5) Galletly
6) Beckett, 7) Owen, 8) Loamanu
9) White, 10) Bryant
12) Roberts, 13) Catchpole
11) Odogwu, 14) Douglas, 15) Worth

16) Farnworth, 17) Hills, 18) Tuilagi
19) Povas, 20) Evans
21) Tresidder, 22) Umaga, 23) Sutton/Yawayawa

With the likes of Benjamin, Morris, Manu, etc being introduced when fit.

2) I was thinking they could a short tour to the likes of Canada, Georgia, Romania, USa, etc etc if no other A teams about. like a 2/3 week tour.

 

[Peat]

With exceptions, the best players are ahead of the curve all the way through their professional career. Pocock might be in the form of his life, and he might be reaching his best years, but he's looked outstanding for years now. Alun Wyn was impressive years before his best, starting in the Lions when he was 24. So I'm not worried about dropping players reaching their pay-off years; if they are just about to go into their best years, then form and merit alone should be enough for them to keep their places ahead of inexperienced youth. If they can't keep their place, then the pay-off won't be particularly worth it.

That is the theory.

The reality is England pick a player because he looks ahead of the curve, then we don't stick with him as flaws develop and dump him before his best years for a younger model, then the cycle starts again. Maybe continuing wouldn't pay-off - although in some cases I think it would or later re-inclusion has - but either way, it's besides the point. England's rugby development is getting wrong and none of our young stars are reaching the top as stars. That is the point. Flood is merely example 251.

Not to mention that Flood did deserve his place on form and merit before leaving and if he'd stuck around would have probably won one on form and merit.

 

[barkinghooker]

Would anyone begrudge the RFU setting up a franchise team or two to play in the AP ( there was talks of expanding the league )?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Tom Croft stats so far.

3 games
Tackles made - 21
Turnovers Won - 3
lineouts won - 16
Lineouts stolen - 2

Have to say watching Croft play the last 3 games he is been alot more involved in the tight stuff.

Been really impressed with it TBH.

Never sure what I think of Croft, but he's got to be in the 6N mix if he stays fit. At his best he offers something different, but he does seem to break quite easily. Watching his progress will be interesting.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Would anyone begrudge the RFU setting up a franchise team or two to play in the AP ( there was talks of expanding the league )?

Fuk no.

Rats is fapping over the idea though.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I would love it, but the PRL would never allow it.

 

[McTallshort]

Wasnt there an rumour the RFU were going to buy a PL team? or was it just wishful thinking from Rats?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Wasnt there an rumour the RFU were going to buy a PL team? or was it just wishful thinking from Rats?

Wishful thinking from rats.

 

[McTallshort]

If they were to buy a club guess London Irish would be the obvious choice..apart from the name.

 

[Geordie]

Never sure what I think of Croft, but he's got to be in the 6N mix if he stays fit. At his best he offers something different, but he does seem to break quite easily. Watching his progress will be interesting.

If you have Croft at 6 you simply HAVE to beef up the pack elsewhere though. And as it is we need to beef it up.
But on form and when fit he is a quality player who offers something different and a real ball carrier out wide.

I just prefer a monster 6 who makes the hard yards in the tight. ANd at the moment we only really have Haskell and Ewers who fit that bill. Haskell actually looked good this weekend. Almost like he'd been told...just tackle and carry. Maybe he could do that for England.

I do think Robshaw should still be considered for 6 as well though (not captain) . Though judging by Wallace and Cliffords performance he wont just walk back in to the Quins team.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm not aware of one...

Just mentioned that Glos is up for sale.

 

[Patchey]

.

I do think Robshaw should still be considered for 6 as well though (not captain) . Though judging by Wallace and Cliffords performance he wont just walk back in to the Quins team.

Already has, started over Wallace at the weekend.

Tbh, Robshaw is a fixture at Quins and it'll take a whole season of having both Jack and Wallace playing well for him to lose that status. Just the way it is.

 

[Geordie]

Ah I thought Wallace had started.

Robshaw in top form is a top class player...especially in a balanced pack.

 

[Peat]

If you have Croft at 6 you simply HAVE to beef up the pack elsewhere though. And as it is we need to beef it up.
But on form and when fit he is a quality player who offers something different and a real ball carrier out wide.

I just prefer a monster 6 who makes the hard yards in the tight. ANd at the moment we only really have Haskell and Ewers who fit that bill. Haskell actually looked good this weekend. Almost like he'd been told...just tackle and carry. Maybe he could do that for England.

I do think Robshaw should still be considered for 6 as well though (not captain) . Though judging by Wallace and Cliffords performance he wont just walk back in to the Quins team.

Croft's impact in the tight is very underrated imo. No, he's not Ewers, but he's as good as most blindsides there.