[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[Raggs]

Last season I recall Ford being the only bright spark in that Bath squad, and he was close to the same this time round. He was offered little to no option, so was trying to create them. Farrell had a good game, should have been 10 minutes shorter and a try less, but still. What he wasn't doing was running that game, Wiggles was doing that, but I don't believe Farrell outshone Ford on a one to one basis.

You've said you don't consider Fords kicking to be as good as Farrells, but you are right, you weren't referring to Ford directly when you said that Farrells points of difference are kicking and defence. But really, you have to be comparing to 10s in general, and his kicking isn't better than almost any other regular tier 1 kicker/10. His defence, I'd not rate him above Biggar or Sexton, nor Carter or Pollard. So, Farrells only point of difference to Ford, is his defence. Which should have seen him sitting in the bin for 10 minutes in the final, and once or twice in internationals. He's also been repeatedly bounced off because he consistently tries to go too high. Ford loses yards, but he very rarely actually misses. Now of course, that may be a problem in itself, and not every miss is a bad one, but Fords points of difference over Farrell are multiple. Running threat (more space for the rest of the backline), kicking out of hand, vision, and passing.

 

[Every Time Ref]

My opinion on the Farrell vs Ford argument is that we have a simple decision to make do we choose Ford and maybe play Barritt to sure up the defence and be the leader as he assumes the role so well or do we play Farrell and play Eastmond at inside centre to add a bit of spark maybe ?

That was my point, not very clearly expressed. If Lancaster plans on playing Eastmond then he doesn't plan on playing him alongside Ford. I don't think he will though, as he clearly doesn't think much of him.

Ford probably will start, but I'm sure it will be on Lancaster's mind that at his best Farrell plays a style suited to knockout rugby

 

[michaelbolton]

That was my point, not very clearly expressed. If Lancaster plans on playing Eastmond then he doesn't plan on playing him alongside Ford. I don't think he will though, as he clearly doesn't think much of him.

Ford probably will start, but I'm sure it will be on Lancaster's mind that at his best Farrell plays a style suited to knockout rugby

This is what happened in 2011 and that went well... Flood was playing amazing for 2 years incumbent of the 10 shirt and then he suddenly put Wilkinson in for world cup because he is that type of player but meant changing the whole game plan...

 

[Crapspray]

...but I don't believe Farrell outshone Ford on a one to one basis.

While it's difficult to directly compare, since Sarries were on top across the team, but Farrell clearly had a better game. He didn't win man of the match by fluke. He also played very well against Saints the week before in a much tougher game than Bath v Tigers.

So, Farrells only point of difference to Ford, is his defence. Which should have seen him sitting in the bin for 10 minutes in the final, and once or twice in internationals.

In 29 games he's been binned once, for not rolling away. There's a lot to be said, particularly in this "nice" England side, for a player who can ****le from the right side of the line. No one moans about Brown swearing at refs and scuffling with the opposition because he plays with an edge. It's the reason Farrell stands out from other youngsters: he's gobby and aggressive beyond his years. In games like Ireland this year, England distinctly lacked someone violent enough to seize the intiative back.

He's also been repeatedly bounced off because he consistently tries to go too high. Ford loses yards, but he very rarely actually misses.

My Bold. Putting it mildly; Ford was giving five yards up down his channel time and again throughout the Six Nations. He holds players up hoping the loose forwards will complete. That he latches onto them whilst going backwards, whilst Farrell gets bounced off, suggests Farrell's hitting them a bit harder, not that Ford's a better tackler. Linespeed is night-and-day as well.

Now of course, that may be a problem in itself, and not every miss is a bad one, but Fords points of difference over Farrell are multiple. Running threat (more space for the rest of the backline), kicking out of hand, vision, and passing.

Crucially, which are most important in knock-out rugby? Defence and kicking. It's a wash on kicking and Farrell is the better defender.

---

We all know Lancaster will play 10. Ford 12. Farrell. I just hope it's in the Wilkinson-Catt category, and not the Wilkinson-Flood one. On the bright side, at least we have the choice. Two years ago we only had Farrell. A much worse Farrell.

 

[Maverick1987]

Ford has frequently fluffed his lines in the big games.... Two years running he has completely bottled it at the play off stages of the premiership - this year he was completely outplayed by Farrell in pretty much every facet of play (go look at Morgan's analysis of how big an impact Farrell had).

Secondly kicking IS a major difference - but I never said it was the difference between Ford and Farrell, I said it was why he, Farrell, was vital for the world cup, not that Ford shouldn't play 10, that's something ragerancher said and you all ran with it.

You said in the other thread that Farrell can't be blamed solely for us losing to Wales in Cardiff 30-3 . Well imo is losing to Ireland in Dublin last 6N comes in that same bracket . Same with the prem final . There's no denying both teams that lost that day performed massively under what they can . It's not one persons fault . We wouldn't have won in Cardiff with Ford playing and we wouldn't have won in Dublin with Farrell playing . Also don't forget the one who doesn't start will be on the bench .....

 

[McTallshort]

Doesn't matter who plays10 they are both more than capable but they need the pack going forward which is what we didn't have in 2011

 

[ZeroTwo]

Doesn't matter who plays10 they are both more than capable but they need the pack going forward which is what we didn't have in 2011

I tend to agree with this.

People who say that Farrell stifles attack aren't entirely right. He often picks the pass from the 9 close then spreads it wide fast, often picking a large centre for a break, as well as being able to loop a pass for a try on the wing. His distributing has helped England score a number of tries.

Now this IS to be expected of a 10. I just think people are forgetting that with front foot ball, clever backs and a good distributing 10 you can cause havoc. For example 2009 Stephen Jones lions distributing to BOD & Roberts caused lots of problems when moving forward.

 

[goodNumber10]

I tend to agree with this.

People who say that Farrell stifles attack aren't entirely right. He often picks the pass from the 9 close then spreads it wide fast, often picking a large centre for a break, as well as being able to loop a pass for a try on the wing. His distributing has helped England score a number of tries.

Now this IS to be expected of a 10. I just think people are forgetting that with front foot ball, clever backs and a good distributing 10 you can cause havoc. For example 2009 Stephen Jones lions distributing to BOD & Roberts caused lots of problems when moving forward.

Hallelujah!

A man who gets it

I agree with this entirely, and would use the Italy game last year as another example of coming onto the ball at pace causing issues - as i would the 2013 Lions with Sexton at 10.

 

[goodNumber10]

You said in the other thread that Farrell can't be blamed solely for us losing to Wales in Cardiff 30-3 . Well imo is losing to Ireland in Dublin last 6N comes in that same bracket . Same with the prem final . There's no denying both teams that lost that day performed massively under what they can . It's not one persons fault . We wouldn't have won in Cardiff with Ford playing and we wouldn't have won in Dublin with Farrell playing . Also don't forget the one who doesn't start will be on the bench .....

Think you're misunderstanding me mate, i'm not blaming Ford for Ireland etc... i'm saying that the whole attacking shape of a team is about more than just one guy.

Ireland, Prem final all these games show that Ford is as ineffectual as Farrell is portrayed to be when his solid platform is removed from him - in fact he's probably even less effectual as he doesn't even have defence to make an impact

If the 10 has a solid front foot attacking platform then both are decent attacking options with Ford the better attacking choice.

 

[MrTea_32]

With Ford at 10 and firing he should be England's first choice ahead of Farrell easily, and if he's having a game like Ireland or prem final bring Farrell on.

 

[Maverick1987]

Think you're misunderstanding me mate, i'm not blaming Ford for Ireland etc... i'm saying that the whole attacking shape of a team is about more than just one guy.

Ireland, Prem final all these games show that Ford is as ineffectual as Farrell is portrayed to be when his solid platform is removed from him - in fact he's probably even less effectual as he doesn't even have defence to make an impact

If the 10 has a solid front foot attacking platform then both are decent attacking options with Ford the better attacking choice.

See what you mean now . Can't disagree tbh I think that counts for every 10 in the world

 

[Peat]

I tend to agree with this.

People who say that Farrell stifles attack aren't entirely right. He often picks the pass from the 9 close then spreads it wide fast, often picking a large centre for a break, as well as being able to loop a pass for a try on the wing. His distributing has helped England score a number of tries.

Now this IS to be expected of a 10. I just think people are forgetting that with front foot ball, clever backs and a good distributing 10 you can cause havoc. For example 2009 Stephen Jones lions distributing to BOD & Roberts caused lots of problems when moving forward.

If Fazlet was anything like the distributor 2009 Stephen Jones was, this conversation wouldn't be happening.

 

[goodNumber10]

If Fazlet was anything like the distributor 2009 Stephen Jones was, this conversation wouldn't be happening.

If Fordtje was anything like the defender 2009 Stephen Jones was, this conversation wouldn't be happening.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Sounds like Stephen Jones is making a late bid for England's World Cup squad.

There's not really much to add to the discussion, but yeah, basically agree with the consensus - can't judge a 10 by his pack, Ford is definitely the better with front-foot ball but would need to be a lot better under pressure, especially his tactical licking, if England's pack was being beasties like Bath Vs Sarries or England-Ireland.

However, it's worth pointing out that his place-kicking against Sarries and in Dublin against Leinster (another day where his pack was dominated) was very good. I would also point to his performance against Leinster, in fairness, to show that he can perform, although one swallow and all that. Not to be written off though.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

If Fordtje was anything like the defender 2009 Stephen Jones was, this conversation wouldn't be happening.

Is that like the mix of Ford and Itoje? Damn that could be some player...

 

[goodNumber10]

Is that like the mix of Ford and Itoje? Damn that could be some player...

heheh! no.

in Dutch (and Afrikans i think) if you add "tje" to the end of a name/some words it means little one..... so Fazlet = little Farrell, Fordtje = little Ford

 

[Wendigo7]

My issue with Farrell was never his physical attributes and goal kicking.

My issue was I thought he was (and is to an extent) a very, very poor passer off his left, to the point where he shouldn't be in a distributing position. I also thought his decision making was erratic both ball in hand and his passing. Quite often tries that should have been scored weren't and it killed alot of our momentum.

With Ford in the team, he's a very good covering defender in a drift system, he's not as good in frontline rush defence (yet). He probably let's be honest is aware of that and is improving being around the likes of Farrell and co. His passing is exemplary and his decision making is excellent. I actually think he is the heartbeat of the side (England and Bath) and ball in hand he might be the best 10 on the planet currently (my personal opinion, I prefer him to Sopoaga, Russell, Biggar, Barrett etc.) That passing and playing with ball in hand will beat the SH, it's what the team is good at because I don't think the front 5 and forwards in general are good enough to play the rough stuff tight yet. That is why I prefer Ford over Farrell, but unlike others on here I rate Farrell highly.

His work rate and temperament I love, he trains really hard to improve and his ball in hand play and distribution have improved out of sight in the last 6 to 8 months or so. I still personally think he's a 12, I don't think he has the natural talent of a 10 like Ford does and those extra decision making seconds are very key at 10, then you have Slade pushing hard at 12. He's actually got a good eye for a gap and is pretty handy and spotting things to run onto but not as good at spotting space for me, hence I think he's a 12 not a 10. He's pretty fast actually.

I also think it's fair to say Wales don't really do Sarries style well enough to be considered an international equivalent, nor SA and as a result I don't think Ford will have the same worries at Int level about being singled out like he does at Bath.

Personally I think Ford is starting the big games, Farrell will start the opening match and the uruguay game.

Can I just say it's a good conversation to have? It's not the worst situation in the world to have 2 of the best young 10s in the world fighting for one spot. (Yes Barrett, Pollard etc. but I think Farrell's got the most steel and Ford the most natural talent)

My own opinion.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I go blow hot and cold for Farrell. Sometime really like what he does sometimes not. But when seeing players like spade zone through it makes it more obvious that Farrell is lacking quite a few qualities of a top top.
Pace, distribution, decision making. But as when he spent time in the lions camp he improved and learned, I expect the same from this World Cup camp.

Farrell knows he can't rely on just kicking and defence and should be a better player coming into the World Cup, maybe not as good as Ford in all areas but they both have their strengths.

Ps. Silly point but you could really have
10 ford
12 Farrell
13 slade

3nr 10s in the team!

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'd like Farrell a lot more if RU had a positional equivalent to an RL loose-forward.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'd like Farrell a lot more if RU had a positional equivalent to an RL loose-forward.

what did he and Ford actually play?