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[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

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When do the 5 get cut from the squad? I think, although it's early, that'll be an indication of where we're going.

Itoje is going to make the squad. Purely based on how much media he's been in they clearly like him (that's my theory at least...).
 
I am gunning for Itoje, Kvesic Morgan post WC, would be such a big improvement. Especially when you think of the likes of Launchbury and Cowan Dickie elsewhere in the pack to add some dynamism and mobility. And whoever mentioned Hill he is good but so not ready yet, that is definitely your Exeter bias

I'd go for Itoje Robshaw Vunipola at this moment in time . It's everything we need presuming Launchbury and Cole play to help get over the ball
 
I'm not sure I'd be holding too much hope on Lancaster deciding to discard the back rows he's invested time and trust in over the past four years in favour of a bunch of kids with little international experience. Guys like Ewers and Kvesic, they've made mighty strong cases for themselves getting international chances, but Lancaster hasn't agreed and I'm not sure why he's going to change his mind now. Wouldn't mind being wrong though.
 
I'm not sure I'd be holding too much hope on Lancaster deciding to discard the back rows he's invested time and trust in over the past four years in favour of a bunch of kids with little international experience. Guys like Ewers and Kvesic, they've made mighty strong cases for themselves getting international chances, but Lancaster hasn't agreed and I'm not sure why he's going to change his mind now. Wouldn't mind being wrong though.

Imo Itoje is different class to the others though . I genuinely think he could be the best 6 in the world sooner rather than later
 
Point taken Peat, but I'd say that unlike the others he's about to spend all summer watching Itoje up close. Don't think the guy can fail to impress in that situation!
 
I'm not sure I'd be holding too much hope on Lancaster deciding to discard the back rows he's invested time and trust in over the past four years in favour of a bunch of kids with little international experience. Guys like Ewers and Kvesic, they've made mighty strong cases for themselves getting international chances, but Lancaster hasn't agreed and I'm not sure why he's going to change his mind now. Wouldn't mind being wrong though.
Three main reasons I think:

1. Within the next WC cycle, I think guys like Kvesic will leave the older players behind. Kvesic is 23 and will get better. The others are 28-30 and won't (or if they do, they'll be outstripped in progress by Kvesic).

2. Because Lancaster treats the WC as the ultimate goal. A new WC cycle gives new opportunities. Experienced players won't be able to hide behind their experience as much, since Lancaster will have 4 years to cap a player before the next "big event".

3. Lancaster rates Robshaw and will pick him whenever he's available, but I'm not sure he's as sold on Wood/Haskell.
 
On Wood I think he is. Wood hasn't been good for a long time, but was still first choice until very recently despite some strong candidates in his position. I'm certain he'll go to the World Cup and I'm afraid to say I think there's a very good chance he'll start the crucial games at 6.
 
On Wood I think he is. Wood hasn't been good for a long time, but was still first choice until very recently despite some strong candidates in his position. I'm certain he'll go to the World Cup and I'm afraid to say I think there's a very good chance he'll start the crucial games at 6.

On form though would is a top class 6, he's not been on form this season though which is when Lancaster should have tried out others.

I think we all know that after the World Cup we will see some new faces. But not as many as some people would like, change is better when it's gradual
 
Still think Burgess is nailed on for the side personally. He's started to play very well in that side, carrying Louw in the final.

Think he and Itoje will both get in actually.
 
Still think Burgess is nailed on for the side personally. He's started to play very well in that side, carrying Louw in the final.

Think he and Itoje will both get in actually.

At 12 or 6?
 
Really hope it's in the forwards, but with all the talk from England of him being a hybrid, and the jokes in press conferences of him being too good looking to be a forward, and Manu missing out, I think they're going to have him in the centres.
 
Carried? Burgess had a good game and Louw maybe didn't stand out like he usually does, but the idea that Burgess carried him is a massive exaggeration.
 
Still think Burgess is nailed on for the side personally. He's started to play very well in that side, carrying Louw in the final.

Think he and Itoje will both get in actually.

If Burgess get in the final squad it will be because of who he is and the press not because he is the best in either position . The very real prospect of Slade and Ewers both missing out because of Burgess is worrying to say the least ....
 
I can see Itoje, Wood, Burgess, Robshaw, BV and Morgan in the 31 as back rowers, with Barritt, Burrell, Joseph and Slade as centres. From what I've seen in the AP, SL will want to use Burgess to intimidate and carry, and hes got more opportunity to do that at 6 than at 12. Saying that, I would still prefer SB at 12 than Burrell...
 
On Wood I think he is. Wood hasn't been good for a long time, but was still first choice until very recently despite some strong candidates in his position. I'm certain he'll go to the World Cup and I'm afraid to say I think there's a very good chance he'll start the crucial games at 6.

And would have probably remained first choice but for injury and might still be first choice in Lancaster's mind for all we know; he's still probably Lancaster's second choice captain. The idea that he's not rated, well, that's reaching pretty hard if you ask me. Haskell's picked up a fair few caps too (ahead of Clark who's a clear Lancaster favourite) - young players will be doing some to displace him.

I would like to be wrong. But j'nuh hasn't convinced me I am.

As for the other arguments -

Lancaster has the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take more or less the same team to 2 World Cups and benefit from their experience. He also has to provide the 6N results the RFU wants to keep his job long enough to do so. The next World Cup will be seen as a continuation of this development cycle as much as anything, if not more.

Haskell, Croft, Robshaw, Wood and Clark will be 33-30 by the next World Cup, which providing their athleticism doesn't drop off too sharply, puts them at the peak of their powers. A 27 year old Kvesic is only reaching his peak. Assuming he'll overtake them is a pretty big assumption, and assuming he'll overtake them in Lancaster's eyes looks even bigger to me. Lancaster clearly likes what he has, even if we don't agree, and what he has is Kvesic in a fairly marginal role to say the least.

Yes, there are going to be new faces. But I think they're going to be the guys Lancaster has promoted as quickly as sanity allows (Itoje and Burgess) than the guys who have been making a Premiership case for a good two seasons while being mostly ignored (Kvesic and Ewers) as they seem to be the guys he rates the base athleticism and personality of highest. I think the biggest improvement he wants from Kvesic is an inch of growth and an extra 4 kgs of muscle and that's never happening.

If Burgess get in the final squad it will be because of who he is and the press not because he is the best in either position . The very real prospect of Slade and Ewers both missing out because of Burgess is worrying to say the least ....

No, it will be because Lancaster rates Burgess higher than Ewers and Slade because he really likes what Burgess brings.
 
Yes, there are going to be new faces. But I think they're going to be the guys Lancaster has promoted as quickly as sanity allows (Itoje and Burgess) than the guys who have been making a Premiership case for a good two seasons while being mostly ignored (Kvesic and Ewers) as they seem to be the guys he rates the base athleticism and personality of highest. I think the biggest improvement he wants from Kvesic is an inch of growth and an extra 4 kgs of muscle and that's never happening

Can't see that myself - he's the best athlete amongst our flankers, and I seem to remember that being quantified by England's in house tests.
 
Can't see that myself - he's the best athlete amongst our flankers, and I seem to remember that being quantified by England's in house tests.

Lancaster seems to have a very clear idea of the sort of athlete he wants for a flanker - 190cm+, about 110kg and good in the lineout. Kvesic doesn't fit that model. He may be the best athlete, but I'm skeptical that he's Lancaster's type of athlete.
 
Can't see that myself - he's the best athlete amongst our flankers, and I seem to remember that being quantified by England's in house tests.
I believe this he is exactly what I think our back row needs so watch Burgess get shoe horned in instead..

Lancaster seems to have a very clear idea of the sort of athlete he wants for a flanker - 190cm+, about 110kg and good in the lineout. Kvesic doesn't fit that model. He may be the best athlete, but I'm skeptical that he's Lancaster's type of athlete.

This almost in one sentence highlights what is wrong with the current set up, it is an improvement on where we were but overly loyal and just blind to new players because they don't fit what his idea is, he does the jobs better than any current back row. Guarantee he would top tackles and turnovers ahead of Robshaw from every game I have seen him play since U20s in 2010
 
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