England players set to learn fate

[mohamed_ali12]

Barkley dropped from both squads? Utter farce.

Clearly punished for speaking out.

''One of England's best-ball distributors, goal kickers, tactical kickers and rugby brains not selected in England squad.'' - Luke Watson.

FARCE

 

[Teh Mite]

No Olly? You must be Barking...

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_6241542,00.html

Olly Barkley's omission from England's elite squad has been met with considerable surprise from players and pundits alike.

The Bath centre was one of the form players in the Guinness Premiership at the end of last season and he started both of England's midweek tour games against the Australian Barbarians.
But Johnson no longer considers Barkley to be in the leading 64 players in the country, having left him out of both the senior elite squad and the second-string Saxons party.
Barkley's Bath team-mate Luke Watson immediately took to Twitter to register his surprise at Johnson's decision.
"Olly Barkley...one of England's best ball-distributors, goal-kickers, tactical-kickers and rugby brains not selected in England squad!" wrote Watson.
Former England centre Will Greenwood suggested Barkley had paid the price for his honesty in appraising England's summer tour performances and his own Test chances.
Barkley was frustrated that his qualities as a playmaker were being overlooked by the England coaches who favour a more physical presence at inside centre.
Fellow Bath centre Shontayne Hape and Wasps' Riki Flutey, who has not played regular rugby in a year, were selected in the senior squad while Brad Barritt was preferred to Barkley in the Saxons.
"Decisions are there to be respected and used positively wherever you can," Barkley said philosophically.
Barkley's omission was initially overshadowed by Johnson's decision to drop his first-choice captain Steve Borthwick.
Hooker Lee Mears and wing Ugo Monye, both of whom were 2009 Test Lions, and centre Mathew Tait were also relegated to the Saxons squad.
Leicester scrum-half Ben Youngs and prop Dan Cole were officially promoted into the seniors after establishing themselves in the Test team in the drawn series with Australia.
Wasps' uncapped centre Dominic Waldouck has also been included along with Leeds flanker Hendre Fourie and Gloucester prop Paul Doran-Jones.
Johnson said: "Leaving Steve Borthwick out was a very hard decision.
"He's done a fantastic job for England over the last couple of years and it's the most difficult call we've had to make.
"It is very tough on Steve but it goes to show the depth of talent we've got in that area."

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's a good point. Hape shouldn't be there, he's not as good as Barrit or Barkley. I'd have Barkley there, if only for bench cover. He's a very good centre, and adequate cover for 10 as well

 

[Phlegm & Poise]

Although this NZer Hape is certainly not the answer, I'm also far from convinced that Barkley is, to be fair. He strikes me as a solid kicker rather than a line-breaker or a particularly complete centre. Not that there are any options standing out for that role, either. There does seem to be a dearth of English talent here, hence call-ups for Barritt, Flutey and Hape. On the grounds that they are English, I wouldn't mind seeing two from Barkley, Tindall and Waldouck given a few games together. Probably Tindall + 1, as he's proved himself reliable over the years, and he's good at what he does. I do like a stout man who doesn't shirk.

The whole English backline is far from settled really. Youngs has no experience at Test level, Foden and Ashton are being talked about like they are proven internationals already after a handful of games, Flood is not certain to develop into a consistent international fly half, and the centres, well, as above really. No-one really has an answer. I am not against throwing a talented youngster in, but throwing 4 or 5 into a backline at the same time could either work or flop. Hopefully Tindall and Cueto, neither outstanding but both solid pros at any level, will provide enough consistency and experience to see it progress.

Up front I'm not worried, and in the locks and backrow I'm quite hopeful overall. We've got the attributes there, it just boils down to the execution.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

Although this NZer Hape is certainly not the answer, I'm also far from convinced that Barkley is, to be fair. He strikes me as a solid kicker rather than a line-breaker or a particularly complete centre. Not that there are any options standing out for that role, either. There does seem to be a dearth of English talent here, hence call-ups for Barritt, Flutey and Hape. On the grounds that they are English, I wouldn't mind seeing two from Barkley, Tindall and Waldouck given a few games together. Probably Tindall + 1, as he's proved himself reliable over the years, and he's good at what he does. I do like a stout man who doesn't shirk.

The whole English backline is far from settled really. Youngs has no experience at Test level, Foden and Ashton are being talked about like they are proven internationals already after a handful of games, Flood is not certain to develop into a consistent international fly half, and the centres, well, as above really. No-one really has an answer. I am not against throwing a talented youngster in, but throwing 4 or 5 into a backline at the same time could either work or flop. Hopefully Tindall and Cueto, neither outstanding but both solid pros at any level, will provide enough consistency and experience to see it progress.

Up front I'm not worried, and in the locks and backrow I'm quite hopeful overall. We've got the attributes there, it just boils down to the execution.

Please, if you'd watched Bath at the end of last season, I'm pretty sure you'd have seen more than just a 'solid kicker'. His passing range and accuracy is pretty outstanding, not to mention he reads the game very well and is another option at first receiver. Yes, his kicking is extremely good, but to say that's the only facet of his game is far, far off the mark. Strikes me as a comment made by someone who watched Barkley at Gloucester but has switched off since then.

 

[Phlegm & Poise]

Please, if you'd watched Bath at the end of last season, I'm pretty sure you'd have seen more than just a 'solid kicker'. His passing range and accuracy is pretty outstanding, not to mention he reads the game very well and is another option at first receiver. Yes, his kicking is extremely good, but to say that's the only facet of his game is far, far off the mark. Strikes me as a comment made by someone who watched Barkley at Gloucester but has switched off since then.

I wouldn't pretend to have watched much of Bath recently but it'd take more than a purple patch towards the end of a season for me to be convinced that he's developed into something more than he appeared capable of being not so long ago. As I said, he's probably worth a run in the team (certainly over Hape), the name just doesn't particularly excite me.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

I wouldn't pretend to have watched much of Bath recently but it'd take more than a purple patch towards the end of a season for me to be convinced that he's developed into something more than he appeared capable of being not so long ago. As I said, he's probably worth a run in the team (certainly over Hape), the name just doesn't particularly excite me.

It certainly should excite you more than that of Brad Barritt, Riki Flutey or Shontayne Hape. He is lightyears better than them (if that's an actual phrase) and is actually english. It's a shame that a few, harmless words has cost Martin Johnson a genuinely exciting and attacking inside centre, because not only does he have more international experience than all his competitors for the 12 shirt, but he is a very professional sportsman.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's a crying shame that Barkley is omitted.
If he's not used at 12, at least put him at 21, he's more useful there than Wilkinson, as he's a damn good 12, a decent 10 and is as accurate (if not more so these days) than Wilko with the boot
Having said that, i'd rather
10. Flood
12. Barkley
21. Hodgson

 

[Duckdee]

Manu Tuilagi for England!

If we must have a non-English centre, let's at least have one who hasn't played for anyone else.

 

[Teh Mite]

Bloody unfair words against Brad Barritt.

He's not English, Granted, but he's a hell of a better rugby player then Olly Barkley could ever dream to be.

 

[veux]

Cole, Thomson and Sheridan = world class front row. I like pity Barritt isn't in the elite squad, England's best 12 prospect for the world cup.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just read that there's a good chance Flood is going to be out for 6-8 weeks with his knee (this hasn't been confirmed, so could be less or more) - if he is out for 8 weeks then there's a good chance he'll miss the AIs (first match is two months today)
That'd put Wilkinson back at 10 (gah!), with Flutey probably on the bench (instead of challenging for a starting spot against Hape) as cover for FH/Centre (i noticed he played FH for wasps on the weekend)

So i wonder who'll get called up to replace Flood?
I'm presuming it'll be someone from the Saxons, if so then who?
From the list posted here in the Saxons there's:
Stephen Myler
Shane Geraghty
Alex Goode
Charlie Hodgson

Out of those i'd like to see either Myler or Hodgson called up.
I think Hodgson is more likely to, as he toured in the summer and played well (imo) - though i think i'd prefer Myler. Hodgson is one of my favorite players, but i'd prefer him to be available for Sale rather than AIs (he always seems to come back broken whenever off with England) and Myler is a great prospect, and is younger than Hodgson as well.





However all of this is speculation, as the press release about Flood could just come out and say "He'll only miss 1 week" or something similar

 

[munstermuffin]

Myler deserves a shot. Always impresses me

 

[Teh Mite]

Depends which Myler they call up; The one with confidence, or the one who had an absolute mare against Tigers yesterday (think about how much Saints would have decimated them if they'd got their kicks and not wasted those 4 try scoring chances).

Myler's too hot or cold for my taste, and I'm really sorry to say it. On song he'd do the job and do it bloody well, but you never know when he is going to be.
Goode is a fullback who shouldn't be anywhere near a 10 shirt. Stick him at the back and let him offer Foden some competition.
Geraghty will never get a run in the 10 shirt because the idiots brigade still think he's a 12.
Hodgson is the best pick for the job, but needs a thriving pack to do his job well.

Looks like England are stuck with Wilkinson kicking the ball away again. So me needn't bother picking the likes of Foden, Ashton and Goode. Gives Johnson a reasoned excuse for the likes of Banahan, Armitage, Tindall, Hape & co at least...

 

[Teh Mite]

However all of this is speculation, as the press release about Flood could just come out and say "He'll only miss 1 week" or something similar

Maybe he'll let everyone know via Twitter...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wonder what the odds are on Andy "frodo baggins" Goode getting called

 

[SecondRow04]

Wonder what the odds are on Andy "frodo baggins" Goode getting called

with Johnson, i'd say there is a pretty strong chance that will happen!

 

[Duckdee]

Don't forget Sam Vesty! (I haven't watched the Bath highlights yet, so he might've been above average.)

 

[Prestwick]

Shouldn't this thread be ***led "Every England born player (apart from the existing 31 retarded no hoper has beens who always hog the Elite Squad) set to learn fate?"

 

[gingergenius]

I'm going to be optimistic. Despite Johnson's best efforts, a few players who fit the bill of being 1) young and 2) incredibly talented have managed to find gametime for England and done well.

In Dan Cole, we have a very nice tighthead. In Courtney Lawes, we have a 2nd Row. In Tom Croft we have a blindside. In Ben Youngs we have a 9, Chris Ashton a winger and Ben Foden a fullback.

Thats 6 players I think should, injury and form allowing, be starting every game for us between now and the world cup - all of them are outstanding international prospects. Those guys are bolded.

In the meantime, selecting from the rest of the EPS:

1. Sheridan
2. Thompson
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Attwood
6. Croft
7. Moody
8. Easter
9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Cueto
12. Waldouck
13. Hape
14. Ashton
15. Foden

16. Hartley
17. Wilson
18. Shaw
19. Haskell
20. Care
21. Wilkinson
22. Armitage

Leaving Payne, Chuter, Doran-Jones, Palmer, Worsley, Fourie, Banahan, Flutey, Tindall and Strettle out of the 22.

That team looks OK. It lacks a decent loosehead backup; it lacks a 7, and any real class from 8. Seeing as Flood's injured, we are in sore need of a 10. Hopefully a younger winger (Cato, Monye, Ojo, Strettle) will stick his hand up this Premiership to replace Cueto. And hopefully Waldouck will be as good as I think he is at 12, and we can find someone to replace Hape (someone that's not Tindall).

Reasons for optimism - Jon Golding looks like a decent backup loosehead. James Gaskell can come in at 2nd row in a year or so. Saull and Armitage should both be in that EPS already; add the enigma that is Tom Rees and we do have some fetching options. With Simpson and Care we have some very good backup at 9.

Reasons to worry - Sheridan's form is suspect. None of our hookers would be anywhere near the starting XV of a tri nations/ France side, and arguably not even Scotland or Ireland either. Moody, being captain, will be picked continuously at 7, and he's never been a 7. There's no one I can think of coming through to knock Nick Easter out of 8. Flood is now injured, which means Johnson will pick Wilkinson at 10. Neither Geraghty, Myler, Barkley nor Hodgson inspire me as backup options. We're short on a classy centre pairing.