England in the AIs

[veux]

I'd like to see a team of:

1: Mahler
2: Hartley
3: Cole
4: Lawes
5: Palmer
6: Tom Croft
7: Tom Rees
8: Haskell
9: Youngs
10: Flood
11: Strettle
12: Barrit
13: Waldouck
14: Ashton
15: Foden

 

[Peat]

Well im from New Zealand and support the All Blacks, so I know almost nothing about English rugby, but id like to see something like:

1. Wilson
2. Thompson
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Palmer
6. Croft
7. Fourie
8. Ward-Smith
9. Care
10. Wilkinson
11. Banah
12. Flutey
13. Hape
14. Cueto
15. Foden

What do you think?

If we pick Banahan/Cueto over Ashton and two rather mediocre Kiwi Imports in the centre, I will blow my top.

My general thoughts:

Easter seems to be very underrated
Nobody ever mentions Anthony Allen or JSD these days
The Wilko game times for Toulon should be watched and rewatched. If we can get him playing like he does for them, Toby Flood could spend the entire AIs fisting a dead duck called Roger for all I care. I suspect the players around him plays a part.

 

[Shaggy]

Depend if you support a club or not.

Sure, I don't want to take the thread off topic too much, but I support my national team, my super franchise, my ITM cup team ... in that order ... I just assumed it would be the same for you guys

 

[Teh Mite]

A transcript I kept between munstermuffin and myself about a similar subject not long ago may explain it;

The theory is that if an EPS player is injured, the "training squad" Saxons players are called up. However, we all know that the RFU ignore these rules if it suits them. Backdoor central contracts so ******** to the clubs and their season preparations or the fans who buy their tickets - Part of the reason I will always cheer my club ahead of my country.

"But ok I understand the Irish set up as it easily managed but in England the player pool is much bigger and the national team should be picked on form like Ashton and Foden eventually got in to the team but in my opinion they got in about 9 months after they should've been in like", was alluded in response to me.

The difference is though due to the domestic setup; The Irish setup works as a club - > province - > International system, with none interfering with each others plans or setup. In England however, the self contained club league feeds directly to the national squad, but no concession is made for competitive club fixtures being played at the same time as international training or test matches.

So while the Irish provinces are happy for their players to join up with the International team, in England the clubs can find themselves losing key players for important matches because they're only bench-warming for England (or worse, simply travelling as "backup" players). After professionalism kicked in and relegation suddenly meant more then just playing against a different roster of teams instead potentially meaning the club went under (see: Orrell Rugby), or the difference between a championship or mid-table obscurity, clubs and fans alike didn't like the disdainful attitude displayed by union towards them. This began the club vs country row and also why several clubs began to rely on imports instead of producing English players. The Clubs didn't like the idea of having players who the union could effectively ban them from using more than 15 times a season.

The Union, being the self-serving wankers that they are, wanted central contracts on players who they don't pay the wages of while the clubs told them to f-off. Eventually the EPS agreement was made so the Union pay a lump sum to be distributed between the premier-rugby clubs regardless of how many players they provided. This had 2 major faults however;

1. If a club provided 6 England players in one match day squad (they could even provide all 22), they would still only receive the same amount as a club who provide none.
2. The loopholes in the system mean that any player who is injured can be replaced at a moments notice with anyone.

What effectively happened is the Union now pays less to the clubs for the EPS then they would for the centrally contracted players, but they now have more control and selection then ever before. The clubs and the regular season-ticket purchasing fans are the ones who were screwed.

This is why we've seen over the past few years Northampton become the reject-All Blacks, Saracens become the reject Springboks, LI become the reject-Fijians etc.

"If that the case so for clubs it smarter to bring through few English player but bring in plenty of SH players and also maybe raid Ireland because ie. G. Murphy always stays with Leicester unless it a match and the IRFU accept this. We can't really slag off Saracens now and well these Chairmen of clubs make their money in premiership not with RFU. Only worry this must have for England is it may filter some talent from stepping up" He said to me.

The Saracens model is slightly different, as that is the big South African franchise holders becoming the majority stakeholders in the club and using it as an offshore development territory for their S15 provinces, Sarries being the eventual 'victims' of their repeated attempts to buy out and do this at other clubs previously (notably through the backdoor at Northampton and Newcastle). Note that unlike Baths new sugar daddy, the Sarri-arfies haven't provided any new facilities etc, not have they set out new long-term plans.

A slightly different route to market, but essentially the same cause and effect as they saw the opportunity due to the umpteen loopholes in the system combined with profit-driven share-holders looking for an edge. In Sarries case however, once Eddie Griffiths gets a better money offer to behave like a spoilt brat elsewhere, Sarries will be dropped like a stone with the pants around their ankles without the structure to maintain the current setup, so they're likely to find times difficult there on in. They simply don't have the fanbase to sustain a falldown once the investments run out.

Ironically, this'll make the whole system come around a complete 360 as they'll need the RFU to bail them out, reinforcing the dear old Unions stance of "we run rough shot over the sport".

Ad nauseum, repeat.

The up-shot of it is, while all the English support England, not all us want England to be successful ahead of our clubs.

 

[Shaggy]

A transcript I kept between munstermuffin and myself about a similar subject not long ago may explain it;



The up-shot of it is, while all the English support England, not all us want England to be successful ahead of our clubs.

Thanks for the explanation Bullitt, that's given me a bit to think about ... probably better to play Wilko rather than flood then if that's the case ... i'll stop posting off the topic now

 

[Phlegm & Poise]

For me, Thompson's international pedigree raises him above Hartley and Mears. He's been there and done it against everyone, whereas most of the team have only been playing in the recent England side which has been overshadowed by even Wales and Ireland! I have no idea about how he plays for Leeds but you can guarantee that if any English players are going to shirk the job on the big stage Thompson won't be one of them. Hartley will probably be a 60th minute sub anyway.

I rate Easter quite highly but it is fair to say that he hasn't delivered big performances for England just yet.

As for Wilko, I'm his 2000-2004 biggest fan and I'd love to see him back in an exciting England team. Whether or not he can do it, we'll see. He cannot return average performances in the games he gets, he will have to be good to keep his place as I have Flood down as being the choice flyhalf for the WC at the moment - even though he has hardly been outstanding we have played flatter with him in the side than we have done so for ages and we've looked decent for it.

 

[Duckdee]

Thanks for the explanation Bullitt, that's given me a bit to think about ... probably better to play Wilko rather than flood then if that's the case ... i'll stop posting of the topic now

And just to round it off, I'd have no problem with Flood going if he had not been injured, and had been playing well. I have stupidly idealistic views when it comes to sport, and the EPS doesn't fit with them.

 

[gingergenius]

exactly. As far as I'm concerned, England have learnt over the last 7 years that picking players based on reputation, regardless of fitness/ form simply does not work. So, while Flood is by far the best option England have at 10, there's going to be no point rushing him back from an injury straight into the starting lineup - like they did with Cipriani 2 years ago.

 

[eot345]

id like to see a team like this:

1. Wilson/sheridan
2.Thompson/Hartley to come on after 60 mins
3.Cole
4.Shaw
5.Lawes
6.Croft
7.Moody (if fit)/ if not? worsley mabye but he is so boring
8.Easter/Haskell
9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Strettle (he has had a great start to the season)
12.who knows? Hape hasnt lived lived up to expectations probably Hape or Fluety probably Waldouck
13.Tindall
14.Ashton/(Bannahan to come on if either strets or ashton get injured)
15.Foden/Armitage hes been playing great this season

just some thoughts- cant wait till Joe Marler has reached his full potential he will complete the england frontrow give im 2 years and i reckon he must be starting england loosehead.

also why has everyone fogoten about simon shaw he is playing well for wasps this season

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I am a fan of Simon Shaw, but I do think he can be limited. He's a big brute, and added oomph to the second row while Borthwick was there,
Lawes is a monster in the loose, and Palmer is probably as good as Borthwick in the lineout, and actually appears in the rest of the game.
I'd say it's between Shaw/Lawes for the 4, as neither really boss the lineout and are there for their other work in game. Lawes is faster and more agile
I think Shaw could be good coming off the bench to hurt people in the last 20, but I'd prefer Lawes/Palmer in the starting XV

 

[eot345]

why not a Lawes at4 shaw at 5 combo then we would have a monster in the tight (shaw) and a monster in the loose (lawes)

also can haskell play 7 ??

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Then who's there for the lineout?
Easters a decent jumper, but you really need a lineout captain, which is what Palmer is doing atm.
Though I agree Shaw/Lawes would put the fear of God into a lot of players
I've no idea if he can play 7, most times i've seen him he's been at 6 or 8. It's a shame that Armitage has a broken shin, as he's a cracking player (though having said that, Johnson put himin the saxons for some reason, so there's only a *insert percentage here* chance that he'd be called up if Moody was out)
Haskell would be a better choice than Worseley, as at least he gets work done around the park, even if he does act pretty selfishly (though i think he's matured a lot since being at Stade) - so if it was between him and Worseley i'd take Haskell every day of the week, as neither are specialised 7s so it's the lesser of two evils.
Hopefully if Moody is out they bring in an actual openside flanker to replace him

 

[Peat]

James Haskell possesses an iffy, iffy rugby brain and therefore should only be considered at 7 in the direst of circumstances.

A short list follows of players in the EPS and Saxons believed to be fit who I'd play at 7 ahead of James Haskell.

Tom Rees
Tom Wood
Chris Robshaw
Tom Croft
Tom Rees
Phil Dowson
Luke Narraway
Hendre Fourie
Tom Rees
Andy Saull
Mike Tindall
Tom Rees

I might have made my point now, so I'll refrain from naming half the hookers and other centres as well.

Isn't Simon Shaw dead by now? If not, isn't it time he was? He's not fit enough to play 80 minutes or anywhere near it anymore. He's just a penalty magnet. Awesome in the tight maybe but that's not enough. Lets move forwards for the love of god.

 

[mohamed_ali12]

Would like to see:

1. Sheridan
2. Thompson
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Palmer
6. Croft
7. Rees (providing Moody is not fit)
8. Easter

9. Youngs
10. Flood
11. Ashton
12. Barkley
13. Tindall
14. Cueto
15. Foden

16. Hartley
17. Wilson
18. Attwood
19. Haskell
20. Care
21. Wilkinson
22. Armitage

 

[Teh Mite]

Probably as close to a good team as we could hope.

Don't be surprised if Foden doesn't go down with a bad ankle injury before the AIs though, he's already heavily taped his left foot twice this season (and gone off with it).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Armitage is on fairly good form, so that wouldn't be as big a blow as it would've been over the summer/last 6N
Still would suck though, as he's such a threat.

 

[Peat]

My only quibble with Mohammed's team is Barkley just doesn't seem able to produce at international level. My personal choice for 12 would be to give either Barritt or Allen a go.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'll tell you who's a d!ck: The person who decided that the England/New Zealand match should be played at the same time as Wales/Australia
Was really looking forward to watching both,
Suppose the Wales/Australia will be on iPlayer afterwards, so I won't miss out in the end, but I'll inevitably know the score and it just generally won't be as good as seeing it "live" =/

Edit: For that matter, most matches clash =/
Why can't they spread them over two days? Or stagger them throughout the day

 

[mohamed_ali12]

What are people thinking about Thompson vs. Hartley?

I reckon personally that Thompson's summer should give him the edge over Dylan, despite Hartley's better performances this season for Northampton. I still have a load of issues with Hartley's performances thus far for England, he's admitted himself he hasnt performed on the international stage just yet.

Although i can only realistically see Hartley as the England hooker at the WC so who knows <_<

 

[eot345]

What are people thinking about Thompson vs. Hartley?

I reckon personally that Thompson's summer should give him the edge over Dylan, despite Hartley's better performances this season for Northampton. I still have a load of issues with Hartley's performances thus far for England, he's admitted himself he hasnt performed on the international stage just yet.

Although i can only realistically see Hartley as the England hooker at the WC so who knows <_<

since im playing prop these days all i really care about these days is who is the better scrummager so in this case Thompson plus when he gets angry he is fkin scary at **** lol

also yer i guess that a shaw lawes combo is not that great from a line out perspective but isnt croft supposed to be awsome at line outs or am i just emagining this?