England Rugby 2018/19 Thread

[Scotty]

Harry Mallinder?

We produce a lot of exciting wingers, but not a lot of natural fullbacks it seems. Matt Gallagher was promising, but he seems stuck in fifth on the depth chart at Sarries behind Goode, Daly, Williams and Malins. Perhaps if he moved on, he could get a chance to prove himself?

Or could we convert a winger or a flyhalf to fullback and have them learn to become proficient at the defensive parts of the job? I was hoping Daly would improve with practice, but he always seems so jittery in the air. Maybe Gabriel Ibitoye or Manu Vunipola could be developed there. They have excellent size for the position and are both dangerous on the counter. Or am I just daydreaming?

Matt Gallagher to me from what ive seen is a strong runner but doesnt have a strong passing game, manu vunapola is a 10 and never heard nothing else and if both are behind malins then why convert a 10 pr teach a passing game to a 15 instead of working with the talent you have there already.

Ibitoye is weak in defence on the wing and would be shown up at FB badly.

So we are saying we have barely any young prospects, Malins and Gallagher who both are at sarries behind Goode

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If the RWC final taught us anything it's that in certain positions, notably prop and FB, the basics must come first. You can't hide in those positions.

Still baffled Woodward wasn't given a shot.

Said it before, but Daly's not our best FB, not one of our 2 best wingers, nor our best 13.

As for whether anything needs fixing I'd say quite a bit. Scrummaging, 8, 9, the perennial 10 / 12 question, 15. Curryhill's fantastic when it works but I'd also be asking whether it's right in all circumstances. I'd also like a big orrible lock to emerge and shake up the established order. Sounds a bit harsh given we reached the RWC final, but that's the way I see it.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I wouldn't mind Daly staying at 15 but he has got to improve on the FB basics. He is a pretty versatile player and surprisingly strong. If he improves on his aerial game and positioning then I'd keep him. Watson is miles better at competing for a high ball than Daly is and a better runner but offers less of a boot and link play.

Most important for England though is getting a competent selection of scrumhalves, better scrummaging props and a decent inside centre.

 

[BPM]

Matt Gallagher to me from what ive seen is a strong runner but doesnt have a strong passing game, manu vunapola is a 10 and never heard nothing else and if both are behind malins then why convert a 10 pr teach a passing game to a 15 instead of working with the talent you have there already.

Ibitoye is weak in defence on the wing and would be shown up at FB badly.

So we are saying we have barely any young prospects, Malins and Gallagher who both are at sarries behind Goode

We also have Furbank who seems to have established himself as first choice for Saints and is playing very well.

He's not the biggest, but is a specialist 15 who is consistently playing well. He reminds me a bit of an English Willie le Roux.

Personally, I'd move Watson to 15 but I'd call up Furbank or Malins with a view to developing an out-and-out fullback.

From what I've heard, Malins likes playing 10, but I've always thought he's looked better at 15. Let's face it, he's not going to leapfrog Farrell so if he wants to stay at Sarries, taking over from Goode is a far more realistic goal. Even if he were to leave Sarries to play 10, he's got a lot more competition from the likes of Simmonds, Smith and Grayson so 15 is the logical choice.

 

[WarriorKelv]

Looking at each part of the squad:

PROPS: definitely needs improvement a sure lack of Scrummaging but I think that's more of a change at coach level rather than players. We do however need more depth with only Mako, Genge, Sinkler, Williams our only main options atm. Hepburn and Schonert are backup but aren't good enough for first choice.

HOOKERS: Don't see much of a problem here tbh considering it's the least paid position we have a good selection. Our WC trio could possibly still be around for the 2023 World Cup and we have some good youngsters coming through. Would like Thacker to get a chance.

SECOND ROW: I would like a big brute to come in and partner Itoje someone like Stooke? Kpoku? Moon? Launchbury should be ok for a few more years yet too. I would like Hill and Isiekwe to come in as well. I don't really see us having a problem here tbh we always seem to have a decent second row.

BACK ROW: Simply put i'm very excited with the youngsters we have coming through and with the mix we have. The only issue here is physicality tbh we need 8s. Hopefully players like Dombrandt/ Earl can offer that, Tom Willis and Rus Tuima given a few more years could be ready by 2023 Aaron Hinckley too.

SCRUM HALF: Tbh I wasn't a massive fan of Youngs anyway and Heinz was only a stop gap so I really see it as a good thing that we are going to have a change of guard here. Spencer and Robson are decent enough for now and gives a massive chance for the youth to make a name for themselves.

FLY HALFS: Farrell and Ford again could realistically still be around for 2023 and also an area where we have a list of potential youngsters to be given a shot. One player I would like to be given a shot is Joe Simmonds, age may be against him but I would argue he is in better form than either of the first choice players however Jones loves those two.

CENTRES: We seem ok at 13 both with current players and players coming through however the main concern is 12. Players like Lawrence, Redpath, L. James prefer 13, Devoto doesn't seem to have got his chance, Tompkins I like but is behind Barritt at Sarries and Williams was but getting relegated hasn't helped his cause, it's going to take another 2 years at least for him to get into Jones favour. Will Butler and Max Ojomoh could be worth watching for the next 3/4 years.

WINGS: Again not really a big problem May I will start to wind down now but we never really have a problem with wingers. Nowell and Cokansinga add much needed physical aspects too. We do need better defence on the wings but I wouldn't say it's a massive problem.

FULLBACK: We do have depth here but we certainly lack a specialist 15 Malins and Furbank would certainly be worth a shout but I don't think we are going to get the complete articles as it's such a hard area you have to have good defence, good under the high ball, Attack and a good boot.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I'm not sure if we're reading too much into one bad game against the best scrummaging side in world rugby. I don't recall our scrum being a weakness in other games, and it's not as if the rest of the team didn't also play badly in the world cup final. It was an all around no-show. Sure, we need to improve the scrum, but I don't think we're that far off.

Also, Marler will only be 34 by the time of the next WC. Mtawira was 34. Half of our Dad's Army squad of 2003 was 34. I don't think we should be discarding players right now unless we're certain they'll be too old to make the next WC, e.g. Cole. The likes of Marler, George, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson and (gulp) Youngs all have a shot, form and fitness permitting. I think the thing we've been missing since Lancaster came is experience. I'd like to see us take a squad to the next WC with a ton of caps throughout the squad.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Does Marler still want to play internationally?
I dunno if the world cup was a one and done, or if he's fully back?

HOOKERS: . Our WC trio could possibly still be around for the 2023 World Cup .

Singleton shouldn't be anywhere near the EPS with how shocking he's been for Saracens

 

[Jashay]

I'm not sure if we're reading too much into one bad game against the best scrummaging side in world rugby. I don't recall our scrum being a weakness in other games, and it's not as if the rest of the team didn't also play badly in the world cup final. It was an all around no-show. Sure, we need to improve the scrum, but I don't think we're that far off.

Also, Marler will only be 34 by the time of the next WC. Mtawira was 34. Half of our Dad's Army squad of 2003 was 34. I don't think we should be discarding players right now unless we're certain they'll be too old to make the next WC, e.g. Cole. The likes of Marler, George, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson and (gulp) Youngs all have a shot, form and fitness permitting. I think the thing we've been missing since Lancaster came is experience. I'd like to see us take a squad to the next WC with a ton of caps throughout the squad.

With the scrum I agree to an extent. My worry isn't that we got beaten by a very good scrum, it's that we might lose both our decent scrummaging props and thus struggle against other packs too. Cole is surely not going to the next RWC, and Marler may well step down again. Apart from them I don't think you'd say any of the current crop are high-level scrummagers.

But as you say, most won't be too old for the next RWC. Best case, we only need to replace Cole. (I hear good things about Heyes, how's he getting on?) No harm in finding some extras though.

And I agree that we shouldn't discard players just because of age, but in cases like Youngs it's surely better to at least back-burner him right now so we have more time to bed in a new scrum half. After Youngs and Care I'm struggling to name a current scrum half with more than 5 caps.

 

[Scotty]

I'm not sure if we're reading too much into one bad game against the best scrummaging side in world rugby. I don't recall our scrum being a weakness in other games, and it's not as if the rest of the team didn't also play badly in the world cup final. It was an all around no-show. Sure, we need to improve the scrum, but I don't think we're that far off.

Also, Marler will only be 34 by the time of the next WC. Mtawira was 34. Half of our Dad's Army squad of 2003 was 34. I don't think we should be discarding players right now unless we're certain they'll be too old to make the next WC, e.g. Cole. The likes of Marler, George, Lawes, Kruis, Wilson and (gulp) Youngs all have a shot, form and fitness permitting. I think the thing we've been missing since Lancaster came is experience. I'd like to see us take a squad to the next WC with a ton of caps throughout the squad.

I agree on scrummaging as Mako has more than held his own at internation level on most of occasions and his other aspects of his game come good especially his workrate both attack and defence. But we need a scrummaging prop aswell for them games like marler.

On player experience i agree to a point but i dont want an old squad because the risk is a few dropping off, but some of these young players like itoje, curry, underhill, ludlam ect have world cup internation experience and will be experienced at a peak age next WC, youngs shouldnt be anywhere near the team...ever again...the fact as the most capped player on the pitch he choked massivly in the final thowing passes that werent on and throwing it off the pitch. If he cant do it now he never will.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Some good points about Marler's shaky commitmant to the cause.

Youngs - the trouble with him has always been consistency. He has had some excellent games for England where his box-kicking has been pinpoint, he's been a threat with the ball in hand and he's provided an array of passes to make things happen in attack. But he always, always, always seems to follow that up with a dreadful game where his box-kicking's too long, he offers nothing ball in hand and his passes keep going to the wrong runners (or the linesman ). I wonder if he might be better coming off the bench? But then again, are there any English scrum halfs really tearing up the Premiership at the moment? There are some promising youngsters, sure, but the Premiership's top SHs all seem to be foreign: Faf, Nic White, Reinach etc. We might be stuck with Youngs for the next four years.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Spencer is pretty comfortably the best English 9

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Spencer is pretty comfortably the best English 9

I'll have to take your word for it as I don't watch enough club rugby, but that's good to hear.

 

[WarriorKelv]

Marler came back to help out because Mako was injured. That makes my point about depth really. There are props I would give a chance to but they are 29/30 so depends whether Jones wants to focus on youth or not.

Yes we struggled against a very good South African side but we also struggled in the Australian game too with all the restarts. Look back at the SA game aswell and when Marler came on we straight away should have won a contest. Just goes to show what a dominant scrummager can do. Mako and Sinks can hold their own and Williams/ Genge more so but we don't really have any dominant scrummagers around.

In terms of at scrum half Spencer last season was clearly the best performing scrum half. We also need a Faf type player and I think Harry Randall could do that. We aren't going to have world beaters at SH but just consistency would be good. Thing with Youngs is he is so inconsistent and a confidence player. When England play well he is one of the standout players yet playing badly he is one one of the worst.

 

[Nudger]

Is Rees-Zammit EQP? If so I'd like to see him in the squad at least. Doubt May will still have his pace at the next World Cup so introducing another true speed merchant would be good.

Welsh

 

[WarriorKelv]

Welsh

There is young Roti Segun at Saracens who is a speed merchant. I think he can run the 100m in 11.00 secs or under.

 

[Scotty]

Welsh

Pretty sure he is EQP as well as qualifying for Wales. He has stated he wants to play for Wales.

Marler came back to help out because Mako was injured. That makes my point about depth really. There are props I would give a chance to but they are 29/30 so depends whether Jones wants to focus on youth or not.

Yes we struggled against a very good South African side but we also struggled in the Australian game too with all the restarts. Look back at the SA game aswell and when Marler came on we straight away should have won a contest. Just goes to show what a dominant scrummager can do. Mako and Sinks can hold their own and Williams/ Genge more so but we don't really have any dominant scrummagers around.

In terms of at scrum half Spencer last season was clearly the best performing scrum half. We also need a Faf type player and I think Harry Randall could do that. We aren't going to have world beaters at SH but just consistency would be good. Thing with Youngs is he is so inconsistent and a confidence player. When England play well he is one of the standout players yet playing badly he is one one of the worst.

Harry Randall is arguably better but stuck behind Uren at Bristol, Alex Mitchell looks good but injured and behind Reinach(this season), Maunder and Townsend both look good (maybe not good enough) but are behind White(this season).

With White and Reinach off at the end of the season i think it will be 2021 6N we look at a young SH, for this one we will get Spencer and Robson i think.

 

[WarriorKelv]

Pretty sure he is EQP as well as qualifying for Wales. He has stated he wants to play for Wales.


Harry Randall is arguably better but stuck behind Uren at Bristol, Alex Mitchell looks good but injured and behind Reinach(this season), Maunder and Townsend both look good (maybe not good enough) but are behind White(this season).

With White and Reinach off at the end of the season i think it will be 2021 6N we look at a young SH, for this one we will get Spencer and Robson i think.

LRS will play for Wales i'm pretty sure of that. Especially with all the injuries they have and North not being in the greatest form. I wouldn't be surprised if he is in the 6N but i'm not worried tbh we also have good wingers coming through. Loader, Thorley, Cokansinga, Ibitoye, Murley, Sleightholme etc added to players like Nowell, Watson i wouldn't be worried about missing out on 1 player.

Yeah Spencer and Robson for the 6n but I don't think that is a problem at all and as you said White and Reinach are off so a chance for Maunder brothers, Townsend, Mitchell when fit even Henry Taylor to stake a claim. Randall is behind Uren but tbf Uren is a good player as well. Other names to watch are Tom Whitley, Ben Vellacott and Ollie Fox. Plenty of names to watch there and Spencer/ Robson aren't exactly old war- horses either so tbf we could be in a better situation now. I wouldn't mind giving Joe Simpson a run out in the 6n tbf the guy has been quality this season.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Honestly, I'd be amazed if it isn't still Youngs starting through all of the 6 Nations (bar maybe the Italy game). While the majority of people seem to recognise how poor he is, Jones hasn't shown any signs of wanting to replace him.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Honestly, I'd be amazed if it isn't still Youngs starting through all of the 6 Nations (bar maybe the Italy game). While the majority of people seem to recognise how poor he is, Jones hasn't shown any signs of wanting to replace him.

Same, Youngs will be first choice and I wouldn't be surprised to see Heinz still knocking about (though EJ did seem to be warming to Robson because his illness last year, though Spencer got the nod ahead of him for the RWC callup)

 

[Scotty]

Same, Youngs will be first choice and I wouldn't be surprised to see Heinz still knocking about (though EJ did seem to be warming to Robson because his illness last year, though Spencer got the nod ahead of him for the RWC callup)

Tbh i do think EJ will drop him, for 1 he can be ruthless and youngs played bad in the final, 2 Jones has stated there will be changes for the 6N and 3 Jones sole aim is to win world cups(2 finals and 1 win as the assistant) so he will realise youngs wont be here next world cup and drop him. All this is speculation ofcours as well as abit of hope.

Or he will choose 3 say youngs Spencer and an apprentice SH.