England future management?

[Colombia]

To my mind it's about getting the right fit.
In my opinion Jake White would be the best fit for Coach of the England rugby team. I base that on the manner in which he coached South Africa and the Brumbies. His coaching style would hone the the current strengths of the English side, while negating the faults that see English rugby lagging 5 years behind Southern Hemisphere teams. I further believe the English players would find White acceptable.
I could not say the same of Eddie Jones. That's not to say Eddie's not a good Coach, but I believe he will get frustrated with the English players and vice versa.

Only thing is England aren't strong in their traditional areas right now - I see this being a problem for Jake who relies on a forwards based approach and Jones whose teams have at times struggled in the past without a good pack.

 

[McTallshort]

Only thing is England aren't strong in their traditional areas right now - I see this being a problem for Jake who relies on a forwards based approach and Jones whose teams have at times struggled in the past without a good pack.

Yes but that can change, our pack was only useless in the WC.

 

[Aristodemus]

I put 25p on him at 8-1 a while ago (during the RWC).

Dave Rennie's odds have shortened a lot today on 365 - I don't think he was even listed on their site before.

Fingers crossed! I'm not sure about Jones myself, I'm certain he will do a better job than Lancaster but that isn't a glowing endorsement on my part.

 

[psychic duck]

Only thing is England aren't strong in their traditional areas right now - I see this being a problem for Jake who relies on a forwards based approach and Jones whose teams have at times struggled in the past without a good pack.

Their set piece was actually possibly up there as one of the strongest in the world until this recent RWC and RWC warm ups. Removing Hartley for Youngs had a big impact, as did removing locks as strong as Launchbury/Attwood for Parling.

The competition was held, and Japan & Fiji are listed as joint winners.

But quite honestly it really doesn't matter when set against his other achievements - which are numerous.

'Competition' in this case being loosely used, when he was only competing with 2 sides.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I put 25p on him at 8-1 a while ago (during the RWC).

Dave Rennie's odds have shortened a lot today on 365 - I don't think he was even listed on their site before.

Could get a Freddo with those winnings.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Could get a Freddo with those winnings.

Or some blue dolphins from the pick and mix.

I don't bet big generally - do it for fun with the money I put into the account in order to watch the live stream of un-televised games.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't read anything into odds at all.
Eddie's will have changed due to two of the other runners ruling themselves out.


Don't forget that bookies "stopped taking bets" on Burgess leaving for Leeds Rhinos just after the world cup.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Don't forget that bookies "stopped taking bets" on Burgess leaving for Leeds Rhinos just after the world cup.

Eh... that was a bit of a publicity stunt AFAIK, a pretty thinly veiled one.

I'm not really that into it either - but it's still potentially interesting.
He overtook White, remember.

 

[Maverick1987]

I don't read anything into odds at all.
Eddie's will have changed due to two of the other runners ruling themselves out.


Don't forget that bookies "stopped taking bets" on Burgess leaving for Leeds Rhinos just after the world cup.

Bookies tend to get things right though . They must have had some serious money pile in for the odds to dive from 7/1 to evens in less than 24 hours . Wonder if someone knows something ......

 

[j'nuh]

Preferring Hill at 12 ahead of Slade given his resources and game plan =/= thinking Hill is a better 12 =/= being right =/= being the player England need at 12.

J'nuh - then you're happy to have England hamstrung. That simple.

I don't see it that way.

Whatever the effect it has, it is mild. As far as I can tell, if the England coach had full authority of the position each player in England played, it would have affected two players in the WC - Burgess and Slade. The rest played their normal positions. Of Burgess and Slade, Bath did try Burgess at 12 and stopped it realising it wasn't a good mix. And Slade was never really considered a serious option anyway. He got in because of Tuilagi's ban and a few last minute changes-of-hearts, and he only ever got a game in a dead rubber. IMO, it had no effect on the WC.

Under normal circumstances, it may have an effect on one or two players. Although I'd argue that's fairly normal in international rugby; plenty of international teams do play players out of position.

I just think top-down initiatives are generally bad. You're deferring a decision from someone with more knowledge (club coaches) to someone with less (international coaches). Club coaches work with players far more than international coaches, so are in a better decision to make positional decisions. And it's not just that, it's the knock-on effect that moving players has. Move Burgess to 12 and Eastmond has to move. Since Joseph has to play 13, you'd move Eastmond to the wing. And then Watson or Rokoduguni have to move. You're suddenly playing player jigsaw with your squad, and it's hard to tell who will come out of it looking good. And how will Bath react as a team? Presumably they wouldn't be stronger for having a change that they wouldn't have made themselves forced upon them. So more often than not, it will be a negative move for the club. And how will that affect the other internationals? How will Joseph's form change because he now has to work off of Burgess rather than Eastmond?

I just prefer the current consultation process; I think it's better for all involved.

 

[Peat]

The more and more people talk about an overseas coach the more I dont like the idea, there is an article somewhere comparing this clamour for a big name to the FA's choice of Sven and Fabio but the difference with Rugby being we do actually have some very good English coaches.

Think we should look again at what we have.

I think you're the first person I've heard say that. Most people tend to react like they've just eaten rotten meat when someone suggests one of Mallinder or Cockerill.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

They're not great but they're not the worst out there.
I don't think they'd do worse than Lancaster & friends, but I don't think they'd do much better (at this stage. I think the likes of Baxter, Mallinder - even Blackett - will be international coaches in the future, just not now).



As an aside: Have there been many players that have switched club positions to please international coaches?
Obviously Robshaw switched from 6 to 7 at Quins, but apart from that?

 

[McTallshort]

I think you're the first person I've heard say that. Most people tend to react like they've just eaten rotten meat when someone suggests one of Mallinder or Cockerill.

Or Baxter or Richards or even Diamond? We have assistant coaches like West and Edwards can we not form a coaching team out of these lads? Do we really need the big name with proven international experiance blah blah blah. Note Cheika came from domestic rugby and he seems to be the dogs ******** at the minute.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

To be fair I've always wanted an English coach coaching England.
It's a team of your country's best players, you should also have your country's best coach.
In the smaller nations you can understand them bringing in a foreign coach, but in Tier 1 nations?
It shouldn't really be happening, IMO.

That said, as above, I don't think we really have a coach that's of the level to take charge of England ATM.
But then again: You could pluck any coach from the AP and he'd be more experienced than the last two guys in charge of Eng.

 

[McTallshort]

To be fair I've always wanted an English coach coaching England.
It's a team of your country's best players, you should also have your country's best coach.
In the smaller nations you can understand them bringing in a foreign coach, but in Tier 1 nations?
It shouldn't really be happening, IMO.

That said, as above, I don't think we really have a coach that's of the level to take charge of England ATM.
But then again: You could pluck any coach from the AP and he'd be more experienced than the last two guys in charge of Eng.

And they would know more about the players than a White or a Jones.

 

[Colombia]

Their set piece was actually possibly up there as one of the strongest in the world until this recent RWC and RWC warm ups. Removing Hartley for Youngs had a big impact, as did removing locks as strong as Launchbury/Attwood for Parling.

It's not just set-piece though, the forwards haven't been dominant in the tight-loose for a long time. I think the new coach is going to need a Plan B, and I don't see White has having that.

- - - Updated - - -

And they would know more about the players than a White or a Jones.

It's not just the last two though, Robinson and Ashton were experienced and they failed. Johnson & Lancaster less so, and they failed. Thus, the experienced English coaches have failed, so too the inexperienced English coaches. Against that background, I can see the logic for opting for a coach from outwith England.

That said, every coach is an individual, not his nationality. However, there are no real standout candidates from England at present.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think Robinson was really qualified (despite the experience as an assistant) and Ashton never really wanted the head role, and has said he's far happier as an assistant/specialist than head honcho.

 

[McTallshort]

Think Robinsons proved over time hes a bit naff as a coach anyway. You cannot possibly compare him to the likes of Ryan and Baxter.

 

[Peat]

Lots of people have reacted positively to mentions of Rob Baxter but equally lots of people have made the very pertinent point that he's still quite underqualified in a lot of ways. He's only coached at one club and hasn't got a lot of big final experience. Cheika was mentioned; he'd been coaching for 15 years before getting the Australia call and can point to a lot of trophies. Baxter's been coaching for six and has a promotion and a LV Cup (I think?). I love Baxter's rugby brain and would be interested if he was interested - but there's no denying he's still got plenty to learn.

Richards is the only guy who really has the CV for my money but he's not doing great at Newcastle and brings a lot of baggage.

Diamond... clearly isn't a bad coach, but equally clearly he's not one of the best on the planet. Ditto, well, everyone else.

Ultimately Olyy says it best for me - none of the guys in the Prem really stand out as having the knowledge, personality, and winning record I'd look for in an England coach. I'm sure they'd do ok jobs but if we're going to settle for another ok job then, urgh, well, whatever...

 

[McTallshort]

Who then?