England future management?

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think that with the exception of Diamond all the English coaches mentioned have only coached in the AP or below whereas Cheika, Hansen, Henry, Cotter, Gatland etc all sought out different experiences across the world before taking on the jobs that really made their names. Maybe our coaches are guilty of not fully challenging themselves and that filters down to the players?

Diamond's interesting. I'd argue that he's over achieved at Sale. He's certainly shown some good man management in bringing the best out of Cips; something others have singularly failed to do.

EDIT. Completely overlooked Ford who's doing a good job at Bath but I'm subconsciously discounting him due to conflicts over his son.

 

[TheOvalBall]

I still can't believe people on here take Eddie Jones as a potential candidate seriously ?

Do you know the Six Nations and the Super Rugby run at the same time ?

The bookies are honestly just having a bit of fun...

 

[Peat]

Who then?

Probably someone foreign. I'm really not seeing anyone I'm gagging to get out of the allegedly available candidates. That's not the point though - you reckon we've got the coaches to do it in the AP and I'm disagreeing.

 

[YoungScud]

No he didn't. There wasn't a proper tournament that year and no trophy was awarded (wikipedia is wrong). And even if there had been a trophy, it would be a complete non-achievement beating the two weakest teams. It would be the equivalent of beating Italy and Scotland and crowning yourself 6 Nations champions.

Right now, I'd say it would be more like beating England and Italy and crowning yourself champions.

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I think you're the first person I've heard say that. Most people tend to react like they've just eaten rotten meat when someone suggests one of Mallinder or Cockerill.

Just throwing this out there, but wouldn't Cockerill or Mallinder be part of the problem which holds nations like England back? It's widely recognised that the style of rugby played in the AP and Top 14 are a big part of the problem.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

I still can't believe people on here take Eddie Jones as a potential candidate seriously ?

Do you know the Six Nations and the Super Rugby run at the same time ?

The bookies are honestly just having a bit of fun...

The RFU have the money to buy him out of the contract, no question. Although I too am not sure it'll happen.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Right now, I'd say it would be more like beating England and Italy and crowning yourself champions.

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Just throwing this out there, but wouldn't Cockerill or Mallinder be part of the problem which holds nations like England back? It's widely recognised that the style of rugby played in the AP and Top 14 are a big part of the problem.

There's no problem with the way Tigers or saints play. Both teams are around the top end of the premiership, just because they use their strengths and don't play like New Zealand it doesn't make it a bad thing.

If we actually got malinder, cookers and Baxter together in a coaching team that would be epic! Don't think they'd agree though and we might be missing a backs coach

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Just throwing this out there, but wouldn't Cockerill or Mallinder be part of the problem which holds nations like England back? It's widely recognised that the style of rugby played in the AP and Top 14 are a big part of the problem.

I still think the main problem is the selection. The style of rugby over the past few years has proved to work pretty often, beating every side bar South Africa, I think having a "different" style of play actually isn't so detrimental. Having said that we should use our best players and let them establish a system. There is no way Barritt should have been in that side over the likes of Slade.

The Farrell-Burgess-Barritt combo is not just a completely different style to Ford-Slade-Joseph, they are worse players, and out of form. We should select our best players and let them do their thing, if Barritt pops back into Kiwi beating form then I say let him come in and adapt to the change.

 

[Maverick1987]

Right now, I'd say it would be more like beating England and Italy and crowning yourself champions.

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Just throwing this out there, but wouldn't Cockerill or Mallinder be part of the problem which holds nations like England back? It's widely recognised that the style of rugby played in the AP and Top 14 are a big part of the problem.

Why would it be like playing England and Italy ? We played 2 good teams at the World Cup and lost and Scotland played 2 good teams at the World Cup and lost them both . I think the quality of the Scottish currently is being hugely overplayed . Australia were absolute dross against Scotland and kept letting them back in the game .....

Let's not forget Scotland lost EVERY game at the last 6N with a largely similar squad

Has anyone thought about the possibility of Jones and White working together ? They did it with South Africa .....

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Why would it be like playing England and Italy ? We played 2 good teams at the World Cup and lost and Scotland played 2 good teams at the World Cup and lost them both . I think the quality of the Scottish currently is being hugely overplayed . Australia were absolute dross against Scotland and kept letting them back in the game .....

Let's not forget Scotland lost EVERY game at the last 6N with a largely similar squad

My thoughts exactly. Scotland making it to the QFs was a fluke in itself, playing a tired Japan team, and then Australia seemingly tried to give them the victory and their inability to win from the 6N shone through once more. Has much really changed for them since the beginning of the year?

 

[Mumbles119]

Why would it be like playing England and Italy ? We played 2 good teams at the World Cup and lost and Scotland played 2 good teams at the World Cup and lost them both . I think the quality of the Scottish currently is being hugely overplayed . Australia were absolute dross against Scotland and kept letting them back in the game .....

Let's not forget Scotland lost EVERY game at the last 6N with a largely similar squad

Has anyone thought about the possibility of Jones and White working together ? They did it with South Africa .....

If the Dave Rennie odds have improved too. Could there be a partnership of Jones and Rennie, that could be interesting. Rennie has already expressed a desire to coach in the UK, so we could have Eddie as head honcho (Graham Henry style) with Rennie as Head Coach hands on style. This could be seen a step in his international experience career development, cutting his teeth to get started, with eyes of coaching NZ in later years.

 

[Maverick1987]

If the Dave Rennie odds have improved too. Could there be a partnership of Jones and Rennie, that could be interesting. Rennie has already expressed a desire to coach in the UK, so we could have Eddie as head honcho (Graham Henry style) with Rennie as Head Coach hands on style. This could be seen a step in his international experience career development, cutting his teeth to get started, with eyes of coaching NZ in later years.

Don't say that ! This has just got me all stemmed up haha I'd love it !

 

[Mumbles119]

Don't say that ! This has just got me all stemmed up haha I'd love it !

Haha. Should we not wish for the best!? Saying that... Regardless of present engagements/contracts or whether they want to be involved or not, who would be the coaching dream team?

England Manager - Eddie Jones
Head Coach - Dave Rennie
Attack Coach - Wayne Smith
Defensive Coach - Alex Gustard
Forwards Coach - Michael Cheika
Scrum Coach - Mario Ledesma
Lineout Coach - Steve Borthwick
Kicking Coach - Jonny Wilkinson

Was a bit torn between Gustard and Shaun Edwards, but maybe the younger hunger gets it for me. These are just initial ideas plucked from thin air, I am sure there are many other options too.

*Edit* Upon reflection this is a very large wish list of coaches, and may well be too many. Which roles would be the most effective combination?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

If the Dave Rennie odds have improved too. Could there be a partnership of Jones and Rennie, that could be interesting. Rennie has already expressed a desire to coach in the UK, so we could have Eddie as head honcho (Graham Henry style) with Rennie as Head Coach hands on style. This could be seen a step in his international experience career development, cutting his teeth to get started, with eyes of coaching NZ in later years.

really interesting the way the odds change, no idea whether there's substance to it.
Dave Rennie is joint 4th according to unibet, 888Sport and 32 Red.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Rennie is very surprising since in most lists originally he wasn't even mentioned.

Was quite annoyed he wasn't mentioned originally by them.

Trouble with bookies here is most seemed to not have much of a clue originally.

The fact Ford, Mallinder and Baxter were 2nd 3rd and 4th favourites originally proves they don't have a clue.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Rennie is very surprising since in most lists originally he wasn't even mentioned.

Was quite annoyed he wasn't mentioned originally by them.

Trouble with bookies here is most seemed to not have much of a clue originally.

The fact Ford, Mallinder and Baxter were 2nd 3rd and 4th favourites originally proves they don't have a clue.

Agree...the emergence of Rennie in the odds probably reflects the fact that a few of the brighter sparks decided to google him and realised he exists.
(Not that I can talk)

 

[j'nuh]

Lots of people have reacted positively to mentions of Rob Baxter but equally lots of people have made the very pertinent point that he's still quite underqualified in a lot of ways. He's only coached at one club and hasn't got a lot of big final experience. Cheika was mentioned; he'd been coaching for 15 years before getting the Australia call and can point to a lot of trophies. Baxter's been coaching for six and has a promotion and a LV Cup (I think?). I love Baxter's rugby brain and would be interested if he was interested - but there's no denying he's still got plenty to learn.

Richards is the only guy who really has the CV for my money but he's not doing great at Newcastle and brings a lot of baggage.

Diamond... clearly isn't a bad coach, but equally clearly he's not one of the best on the planet. Ditto, well, everyone else.

Ultimately Olyy says it best for me - none of the guys in the Prem really stand out as having the knowledge, personality, and winning record I'd look for in an England coach. I'm sure they'd do ok jobs but if we're going to settle for another ok job then, urgh, well, whatever...

I'm not too bothered by silverware/a lack of. It's a nice bonus I guess. I think achievements are relative; more impressive to come 6th with Falcons than 1st with Sarries for example. In particular, I think that Bath and Sarries cheating the cap renders the Premiership fairly uncompetitive, so I wouldn't hold it against Baxter not winning silverware, and I wouldn't think it impressive that McCall has won silverware with Sarries.

But Baxter only having one club is pertinent IMO. Some coaches have pretty much zero adaptability, thriving in one set-up and failing in another. We have no idea whether Baxter would be able to replicate his success at another team. And he doesn't seem willing to go to another team to give it a try. I'd like to see succession for Baxter. He should start as the forwards coach and if he does well there, he should succeed whoever the head coach is. Whether he wants to do that is another question.

I also really like Old Hooker's point about how English coaches don't travel and challenge themselves. It won't happen because there's no money incentive to travel, but I would be swayed by an English coach that found success in Super Rugby.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Bookies still don't have a clue. Rennie doesn't have international experience.

 

[Mumbles119]

Bookies still don't have a clue. Rennie doesn't have international experience.

Wouldn't stop him being the number two coach though. That would make sense to me, a coach with no international experience starting as number 2 with a view to gaining international experience for the future.

 

[Peat]

Consider it in this light, j'nuh.

England ultimately can't be successful without the ability to win the big pressure games. The ability to mentally prepare a team for that sort of occasion and give them the right tactics to succeed against the very best is key. I'd argue that really only knock-out games and cup finals give coaches the practice of that at domestic level, and only trophies show that the man can do it.

No matter how impressive a man's track record otherwise, if he's not got those experiences and trophies, he's underqualified in a key part of his skill set.

If Mark McCall was English, he'd be a decent-ish call if he we were determined to appoint a Premiership coach mind.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Bookies still don't have a clue. Rennie doesn't have international experience.

New Zealand U20s!

Personally I don't particularly mind about international experience if I believe enough in the talents, philosophy, and record of success at domestic level of the coach.
Joe Schmidt had no international experience before Ireland.