England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[ratsapprentice]

What is his X factor over say over Kvesic and Fraser? Is this "kid" that good that England use their exceptional circumstance rule for him this early I.e. Suggestions for the Australia tour? Or is it more a case that England are desperate to tie him down before the Welsh get their hands on him like they did with Moriaty and Francis.

His physicality - the guy is 6'3" and 110kg. He's not regularly jackaling at the moment, but that's probably just a timing thing more than a fundamental issue.

I wouldn't say over Kvesic, because I'd be incredibly depressed if he was picked in favor of him, but they are both similarly good linking players and have exceptional workrates.

An Underhill/Kvesic flanker combo would probably be the most athletic pair England have ever put on the field.

It'd be well worth your time watching the Ospreys game today if you can - his opposite number will be Jon Davies' younger brother, who is very highly rated by the Welsh.

I have no problem with him being selected under the EC rules, his relocation to Wales is perfectly legitimate, and exactly the sort of thing you should be encouraging young professionals to do.
I think it would send out a very positive message, that you can and should pursue secondary education wherever best suits you.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

His physicality - the guy is 6'3" and 110kg. He's not regularly jackaling at the moment, but that's probably just a timing thing more than a fundamental issue.

I wouldn't say over Kvesic, because I'd be incredibly depressed if he was picked in favor of him, but they are both similarly good linking players and have exceptional workrates.

An Underhill/Kvesic flanker combo would probably be the most athletic pair England have ever put on the field.

It'd be well worth your time watching the Ospreys game today if you can - his opposite number will be Jon Davies' younger brother, who is very highly rated by the Welsh.

Yep, watched him a couple of times on bbc when playing for the Ospreys; no reason he can't play 6 for England. His work rate and link play were impressive. As you said jackaling is more about timing and that will come. The primary role for a 7 in any case is to secure the team's own ball off of first phase play and Underhill certainly has the pace and stamina to get to each tackle. Will be interesting to see if he is picked this summer , whether for the Australia tour or for the Saxons.

 

[j'nuh]

4. Itoje 5. Kruis 6. Ewers 7. Kvesic 8. Vunipola 19. Launchbury 20. Underhill

pls Jones

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Underhill's the player that Tom Wood wishes he as.

Jones doesn't seem too interested in a "proper" 7, so I reckon Underhill will be ours going forwards.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

His physicality - the guy is 6'3" and 110kg. He's not regularly jackaling at the moment, but that's probably just a timing thing more than a fundamental issue.

Agreed, he's powerful in the tackle, and even if he's not winning tons of turnovers yet, he is extremely strong over the ball at the breakdown. That physicality is the differentiator from Kvesic and to me it's either / or with Itoje at 6 - obviously not everyone agrees with that!

 

[valley commando]

Yep, watched him a couple of times on bbc when playing for the Ospreys; no reason he can't play 6 for England. His work rate and link play were impressive. As you said jackaling is more about timing and that will come. The primary role for a 7 in any case is to secure the team's own ball off of first phase play and Underhill certainly has the pace and stamina to get to each tackle. Will be interesting to see if he is picked this summer , whether for the Australia tour or for the Saxons.

England don't pick opensides do they, not since Neil Back anyway.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Luckily Underhill isn't particularly a 7, then,

 

[j'nuh]

Underhill's the player that Tom Wood wishes he as.

Jones doesn't seem too interested in a "proper" 7, so I reckon Underhill will be ours going forwards.

He pays lip service to wanting a proper 7.

So did Lancaster though.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Luckily Underhill isn't particularly a 7, then,

At the moment, he isn't... if he does start jackaling he will be.
Otherwise he's just a very good footballing blindside.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

England don't pick opensides do they, not since Neil Back anyway.

Peter Winterbottom was picked before Neil Back.

But yes, England coaches tend to prefer 61/2s

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Jones does want a proper 7. Kvesic just isn't good enough at the moment. Not sure why people can't understand that.

 

[j'nuh]

Jones does want a proper 7. Kvesic just isn't good enough at the moment. Not sure why people can't understand that.

Why not?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Why not?

Not physical enough (gives too much ground in contact), not strong enough over his own ball. Those are the things I've read anyhow.

Personally I think he gets a plot of hype of here just because he chooses to jackle more than some of our other 7s. I think Fraser is a much better 7 if he wasn't crooked all the time.

 

[j'nuh]

Not physical enough (gives too much ground in contact)

Partially true.

not strong enough over his own ball.

Definitely not true.

What gets me is that coaches seem to expect higher standards of Kvesic than they do of other players. Kvesic has to be a world beater with absolutely no weaknesses to get a look in, Haskell merely has to be adequate. Kvesic weaknesses aren't as glaringly bad as the brain malfunctions that Haskell has when he gives away another stupid penalty, or Haskell's poor body shape when carrying, for instance.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Partially true.


Definitely not true.

What gets me is that coaches seem to expect higher standards of Kvesic than they do of other players. Kvesic has to be a world beater with absolutely no weaknesses to get a look in, Haskell merely has to be adequate. Kvesic weaknesses aren't as glaringly bad as the brain malfunctions that Haskell has when he gives away another stupid penalty, or Haskell's poor body shape when carrying, for instance.

Well from Jones point of view, Haskell at 7 was better than Robshaw and wood at 7. He didn't want to throw any new caps straight into it and it worked for the short term. Haskell can't be an option long term for the England 7 shirt but I've no idea who Jones really sees as his back up.

Clifford does a good job at 7 but Jones said he sees him more as a 8 in the future.

 

[stus768]

England don't pick opensides do they, not since Neil Back anyway.

Tom Rees

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hendre Fourie probably would've held the 7 position for a few years if his joints hadn't have exploded as soon as he got the shirt.

 

[Peat]

What gets me is that coaches seem to expect higher standards of Kvesic than they do of other players. Kvesic has to be a world beater with absolutely no weaknesses to get a look in, Haskell merely has to be adequate. Kvesic weaknesses aren't as glaringly bad as the brain malfunctions that Haskell has when he gives away another stupid penalty, or Haskell's poor body shape when carrying, for instance.

Or they look at the two in training and select the player they see as having less weaknesses for their desired plan.

I've no idea if they're getting it right, but the idea they're deliberately overlooking Kvesic while going "Hey, Hask, have a shirt, we don't care if you've got no hands and no brain" is probably not how it's happening.

 

[Maverick1987]

Or they look at the two in training and select the player they see as having less weaknesses for their desired plan.

I've no idea if they're getting it right, but the idea they're deliberately overlooking Kvesic while going "Hey, Hask, have a shirt, we don't care if you've got no hands and no brain" is probably not how it's happening.

I think it was more about experience . I think we will see Eddie change things up now . Robshaw and Hask simply won't be fast enough in Australia on hard tracks . I expect to see a faster player in place of one of those 2 in the summer . Either way it's interesting/exciting times

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I think it was more about experience . I think we will see Eddie change things up now . Robshaw and Hask simply won't be fast enough in Australia on hard tracks . I expect to see a faster player in place of one of those 2 in the summer . Either way it's interesting/exciting times

I agree with this. Eddie chose a team to win the 6Ns and to start his reign with wins. But Robshaw and Haskell just won't take England forward and Australia will crucify us again at the breakdown if we play them both this summer. Personally, I still think or rather hope he'll go for a Launchbury, kruis, Itoje, Clifford, Vunipola back 5 v Australia.