England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[Patchey]

I'd be happy with Itoje staying in the row and Clifford playing on the flank.

As Olly, I think, mentioned a few pages back, The Hask does a huge amount of work that is vital and expected of an international (blindside) flanker. Just there are others who can offer the same and more.

Clifford is one of those players.

But I really wouldn't want to see two new flankers starting at the same time, so one of Haskell or Robshaw stays.

Which one? Depends on form and how much Eddie values shirt number.

The real irony here is that Clifford has really stepped up recently due to getting a shed load of game time as a classic 6 (his natural position IMO) because England insisted that Robshaw played 7 at club. Change of management and Quins are playing Chris at 6 so Clifford, who is the best 6 at Quinsby a country mile, is now playing 7 because Robshaw is now considered a 6...

I mean obviously this is all rubbish if you think shirt numbers for flankers are pointless. But a weird quirk nonetheless.



As for fullback, I agree Brown is looking a little jaded. Maybe it's fatigue? Or maybe now that the pace and execution of our backs has stepped up he is being shown up...

I'd expect him to start in Aus still. Will be interesting to see who Eddie takes. Penell is on great form at Wuss and Daly is clearly considered the best 'third back' for the bench. Who else is there?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

And Leonard ended up benching behind Vickery and Woodman, whose mobility and ball handling is often cited by Woodward as one of the strengths of 2003.

He did, but he was right at the end of his career and both Vickery and Woodman were much better scrummagers than Mako is. If you've got someone who can do the lot, then great, but if not I know which way my priorities would lie.

 

[Thingimubob]

Aye, not sure how proud you should be about one of your future stars getting all his rugby training in, playing age grade for, and continuing to play in, another country.

So by that logic you shouldn't be proud of Ben Morgan? Got his chance through the Blues and Scarlets from u20s up, and ended up developing into a top level player there too. Have a feeling that English fans aren't unhappy with how that situation turned out

Also not like Moriarty has any famous Welsh Union and League internationals in his family... he grew up in Swansea too, where he started playing rugby before heading off to Gloucester via Hartpury College.

 

[Peat]

He did, but he was right at the end of his career and both Vickery and Woodman were much better scrummagers than Mako is. If you've got someone who can do the lot, then great, but if not I know which way my priorities would lie.

Aye, fair point that.

 

[valley commando]

Aye, not sure how proud you should be about one of your future stars getting all his rugby training in, playing age grade for, and continuing to play in, another country.

Like the Vunipola brothers you mean, made in Wales.
There have always been many players through the years who have been formed in one country and played for another. One of Cardiffs greatest forwards John Scott was English and played for England.
Dewi Morris born in Wales played for England whilst at that same time English born Rupert Moon played for Wales.

- - - Updated - - -

He didn't seem to think so when he played age group rugby! Luckily for Wales, England's U20 side isn't its nominated second team. No sour grapes intended, but I'm not sure that he would be getting much of a look in within the England setup, so maybe it was a good idea for him to remember that his dad is Welsh!

And his Uncle. Richard captained Wales from the 2nd row in the 87 WC whilst his younger brother Paul was on the flank.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Like the Vunipola brothers you mean, made in Wales.

Yet had all their pro development in England and specifically turned down Wales (who their Father wanted them to play for) because they didn't feel it was right to play for them over England.

So by that logic you shouldn't be proud of Ben Morgan? Got his chance through the Blues and Scarlets from u20s up, and ended up developing into a top level player there too. Have a feeling that English fans aren't unhappy with how that situation turned out

I don't tout him as a win for English development, no.

As Olly, I think, mentioned a few pages back, The Hask does a huge amount of work that is vital and expected of an international (blindside) flanker.

Definitely not me. I think the best thing we could do for our pack is to fire Haskell out of a cannon into the sun.

 

[Thingimubob]

I'd look at is as a positive sign, but not a guarantee of future riches. Some members of strong U20 sides will go on to stardom, some will fade into obscurity. Equally, there's nothing to say that there aren't poor sides containing one or two potential stars and that successful sides don't owe their success to overall strength not star potential (although give me the successful side every day of the week, just saying it's not a guarantee).

FYI, neither Lee or Evans played in the 2013 JRWC final. In fact looking at the lineups, it is quite surprising how few of the Welsh sides have broken few at the top level. AFAIK, only Hallam Amos and Rhodri Williams have earned caps. On the other hand, from the England side, Jack Nowell, Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Ross Moriarty and Jack Clifford all now have caps behind them. I'm not sure what conclusions, if any (other than maybe England had more of a vacuum for them to fill than Wales did) to draw from this, maybe it's just a statistical blip, but I thought that it was interesting enough to point out.

Whoops my bad! Got the 2013 team mixed up with the 2012 one that came 3rd. They were both in that years squad and "graduated" together after it I think. I thought they'd gone on to play in the 2013 squad too for some reason!

The 2012 team has had a few more caps from what I can see: Evans, Lee, Baker, Matthew Morgan, Eli Walker and Tom Prydie (admittedly had already been capped before then, not sure if he's had any since?

Couple in there who probably should've been capped by now - Sam Davies, Owen Williams, and Ellis Jenkins namely - Jenkins is one of a fair few excellent number 7's in Wales and who are very unlucky to have Warbs and Tips ahead of them. One position I haven't really got any worries about when it comes to injuries.

Gotta remember that the senior Wales team hasn't really changed that much since 2011, with the majority of the team only being in their mid to late twenties. We simply haven't needed to bring through masses of players as Gatland has been so consistent with his team selection. We've seen Lee and Jones come through as Adam Jones left a rather large hole in our team and Jenkins is more or less at the end of his international career.

 

[valley commando]

6 Nations low point Hogg the cheat named player of the tournament..................F****ng disgusted I am.

 

[j'nuh]

Farrell at 12 was a bit of curate's egg. I thought his work running the ball was abysmal and something both Ford and Joseph would have room to complain about. But some of his interventions were top notch. I've been trying to do stats on who was involved in our tries, and Farrell had a hand in a huge amount. I think I wouldn't mind seeing Farrell again... but that exact same unit looks like an accident waiting to happen.

We also scored very, very few tries for phase play. Which isn't that surprising, but I think it was less than I'd expect. but I think points to being rather deadly with two playmakers to pick off the opportunities from set-piece and turnover but rather blunt when we needed our centres to make room for others.

Just so that I'm not misunderstood, I wasn't entirely blown away by Farrell at 12. Just that I was expecting to hate every minute of him there, and I didn't. If an unfortunate set of injuries happen and he's forced to play there, I won't inwardly moan as I might have previously. In practice though, I want Slade and Tuilagi in the 23, so there's not much of a situation where Farrell would be my pick at 12.

10. Farrell 12. Slade 13. Tuilagi 22. Joseph to start.

If Farrell goes off, 10. Slade 12. Tuilagi 13. Joseph
If Slade goes off, 10. Farrell 12. Tuilagi 13. Joseph
If Tuilagi goes off, a straight swap with Joseph.

Also, unless by guidance, you mean steroids, I don't think Barritt's going to become better at attacking the line.

Inclined to agree, but hate to rule anything out.

But Burrell (who was called up, remember) might well benefit. And if Jones wants a playmaking 12, Twelvetrees still remains worth at least a cursory look. Ultimately, I'd like him to give both at least a couple of weeks in camp to get a feel for them. I don't think we're rich enough in the position, at the moment, to warrant throwing them away entirely.

Burrell was only called up because Tuilagi, Slade and Devoto were injured, and Hill was already in the squad at that point too, whilst Twelvetrees is fairly clearly off the radar. Farrell also started. If we are talking a pecking order, I suspect it goes something like:
Tuilagi, Slade, Farrell, Devoto, Hill, Burrell

I suspect we may not see Burrell/Twelvetrees unless they do something to shout about in the domestic game.

6 Nations low point Hogg the cheat named player of the tournament..................F****ng disgusted I am.

It's the worst when players you don't particularly like, are particularly good and successful at the game and loaded and probably drink fine wine like its tap water.

But at least Hogg has to live in Glasgow, so I guess my life is better.

 

[Thingimubob]

I don't tout him as a win for English development, no.

But surely still happy with him being available for England though, or the positive impact he brought in 2012?

I mean no neither him nor Moriarty are wins for their respective countries development systems, but still guys we're happy to have! Anyway, not as if Wales or England have adopted a Scotland esque policy of signing up anyone who's qualified / willing to become qualified from around the world, so they're both more or less exceptions to the rule.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But surely still happy with him being available for England though, or the positive impact he brought in 2012?

Wasn't the question, though, was it?
Weren't we talking about creating players for the future?

All I was saying is Moriarty is an example of England creating a player, not Wales.

 

[Peat]

Just so that I'm not misunderstood, I wasn't entirely blown away by Farrell at 12. Just that I was expecting to hate every minute of him there, and I didn't. If an unfortunate set of injuries happen and he's forced to play there, I won't inwardly moan as I might have previously. In practice though, I want Slade and Tuilagi in the 23, so there's not much of a situation where Farrell would be my pick at 12.

10. Farrell 12. Slade 13. Tuilagi 22. Joseph to start.

If Farrell goes off, 10. Slade 12. Tuilagi 13. Joseph
If Slade goes off, 10. Farrell 12. Tuilagi 13. Joseph
If Tuilagi goes off, a straight swap with Joseph.

My big problem is this involves Farrell starting ahead of Ford. And that I personally would not do.

Inclined to agree, but hate to rule anything out.

Burrell was only called up because Tuilagi, Slade and Devoto were injured, and Hill was already in the squad at that point too, whilst Twelvetrees is fairly clearly off the radar. Farrell also started. If we are talking a pecking order, I suspect it goes something like:
Tuilagi, Slade, Farrell, Devoto, Hill, Burrell

I suspect we may not see Burrell/Twelvetrees unless they do something to shout about in the domestic game.

I know Burrell was called up due to desperate circumstances, but there were other people he could have called upon. These are early days for Jones; who knows what his opinions will look like next 6N? I'm not anticipating it, but I wouldn't rule it out (unlike Barritt, where I feel very safe ruling out his effectiveness) because they do clearly have uses.

In particular, if Jones settles on big straight line merchants at 13, I think Burrell ends up cracking the squad. Orrrr... if Saints go to Mallinder/Burrell for a prolonged period, as I believe he was playing better then as well.

 

[valley commando]

Wasn't the question, though, was it?
Weren't we talking about creating players for the future?

All I was saying is Moriarty is an example of England creating a player, not Wales.

He was educated at Glyncollen Primary School and Morriston Comprehensive School in Swansea, Wales. He took up rugby union at the age of ten playing for Swansea Schools and West Wales Schools. He also played his junior rugby at Gorseinon RFC, I'd say he was made in Wales not England. But who gives a ****e what matters is the future the past is done, maybe the IRB should change the qualifying criteria and NZ will have to give all the Tongans, Fijian's and Samoans back

 

[McTallshort]

He was educated at Glyncollen Primary School and Morriston Comprehensive School in Swansea, Wales. He took up rugby union at the age of ten playing for Swansea Schools and West Wales Schools. He also played his junior rugby at Gorseinon RFC, I'd say he was made in Wales not England. But who gives a ****e what matters is the future the past is done, maybe the IRB should change the qualifying criteria and NZ will have to give all the Tongans, Fijian's and Samoans back

As will England and Wales

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

In particular, if Jones settles on big straight line merchants at 13, I think Burrell ends up cracking the squad. Orrrr... if Saints go to Mallinder/Burrell for a prolonged period, as I believe he was playing better then as well.

Very early days for Mallinder of course, lots still to learn. Looks like he's chosen to specialise at 12 and while he's a big old unit, apparently he's played a bit at 10 and last time out he certainly showed a couple deft touches with the boot. Well worth keeping an eye on; maybe he'll pick up the caps his dad couldn't quite manage.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Hill looked good for chiefs vs saints at 12, hill also looked quite good for saints vs chiefs at 3. We could potentially have hill, hill and underhill in the England side

 

[j'nuh]

Hill looked good for chiefs vs saints at 12, hill also looked quite good for saints vs chiefs at 3. We could potentially have hill, hill and underhill in the England side

Hill carries, Hill clears out, Underhill rucks:
"Hill is under Hill under Underhill."

He was educated at Glyncollen Primary School and Morriston Comprehensive School in Swansea, Wales. He took up rugby union at the age of ten playing for Swansea Schools and West Wales Schools. He also played his junior rugby at Gorseinon RFC, I'd say he was made in Wales not England. But who gives a ****e what matters is the future the past is done, maybe the IRB should change the qualifying criteria and NZ will have to give all the Tongans, Fijian's and Samoans back

*Waiting for the SH posters to jump on this.*

 

[Peat]

Farrell at 12 was a bit of curate's egg. I thought his work running the ball was abysmal and something both Ford and Joseph would have room to complain about. But some of his interventions were top notch. I've been trying to do stats on who was involved in our tries, and Farrell had a hand in a huge amount. I think I wouldn't mind seeing Farrell again... but that exact same unit looks like an accident waiting to happen.

We also scored very, very few tries for phase play. Which isn't that surprising, but I think it was less than I'd expect. but I think points to being rather deadly with two playmakers to pick off the opportunities from set-piece and turnover but rather blunt when we needed our centres to make room for others.

Having looked at this, I may be wrong.

In 2015, we scored 18 tries, of which 10 came from 1st phase possession, 2 came from 2 - 4 phases, and 6 came from more than 4. Incidentally, every single try against Italy was scored in a single phase, and 5 of the 6 from more than 4 came against Scotland or Wales.

In 2016, we scored 13 tries, of which only 2 were 1st phase, 5 were 2 - 4, 3 were 4 or more, and 3 I can't tell because YouTube is annoying. Italy gave up the 2 1st phase tries and Ireland 2 of the 4 or more.

So... yeah. Wrong conclusion.

Also, awarding points for either scoring, the assist, or assisting the assist (Ice Hockey style), for the last two tournaments

2015

11 points - Ford
9 - Youngs
5 - Brown
4 - Joseph
3 - Twelvetrees
2 - Burrell, Vunipola, Watson, Robshaw
1 - Nowell, Cips, Easter, Attwood, May, Croft, Haskell, T Youngs

2016

5 - Farrell, Care
4 - Joseph, Ford
3 - Watson, Vunipola
2 - Brown, Kruis, Youngs
1 - Cole, Nowell, George, Robshaw, Vunipola M

Arguably, Farrell's merely being as productive as we expect an England inside-centre to be as using this admittedly ropey mechanic, he was as involved in our tries as our 2 inside centres were last time out. And, statistically, Joseph was as influential, although everyone who watched both tournaments know that's baloney.

The big change here is that Ford went from Godzilla style rampage to merely one of the more influential players on the team in terms of scoring tries and a dip in productivity from Mike Brown.

Incidentally, I've no idea just what this data means, and how useful it is, but you now know that despite appearing for no tries and no assists, Vunipola played an absolutely pivotal role in 3 tries, and that's something. Although given I'm crediting assists for having hands on the ball, some assists are pretty pointless while good rucking gets you nothing. Ford hitting the ruck after Vunipola's run against France was pretty essential for Watson's try, but he gets no credit here. But guess who's got two thumbs and doesn't give a crap.

edit:

Bonus stats

Marler 9c 11m 0db 0cb
Hartley 18c 18m 0db 1cb
Cole 16c 20m 2db 0cb
Launchbury 4c 10m 1db 1cb
Kruis 24c 31m 1db 0cb
Robshaw 40c 51m 0db 0cb
Haskell 31c 31m 1db 0cb
Mako 21c 20m 0db 0cb
Lawes 11c 14m 0db 1cb
Clifford 3c 9m 0db 0cb
George 4c 3m 0db 0cb
Itoje 26c 46m 4db 1cb
LCD 3c 6m 0db 0cb

Billy 93c 336m 25db 1cb

Games where forwards other than Billy more 10 or more metres

Italy (Lawes, Launchbury)
Ireland (Itoje, Robshaw)
Wales (Itoje, Robshaw, Haskell)
France (Itoje, Robshaw, Haskell)

Conclusions from that

The difference Itoje makes is scary and, tbh, is probably a good reason to keep him at lock. We can find more ball carriers for the back row if we want, but none like that at lock, with all due respect to some decent numbers from the other guys.

Robshaw deserves a bit more respect. I wish we'd seen Hask's carrying from last tournament.

Vunipola deserves a bit less talking up for his abilities in the loose. Maybe harsh, given he was asked to run straight into people, but so were the rest of them most of the time. Cole probably triumphs as champion of the front row (although other guys did a lot more carrying for their minutes).

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Hill carries, Hill clears out, Underhill rucks:
"Hill is under Hill under Underhill.

Good job they're all young and not over the hill.

 

[j'nuh]

Billy 93c 336m 25db 1cb

Not as blown away by the 336m made because he did run it from deep quite a few times, but those defenders beaten... Jesus.

And yeah, I had the sense that Itoje carried well, but that data appears to give even more credence to it. If class players have at least one point of difference, Itoje has two: his carrying and breakdown game are way above average for what is expected of an international second row. The criticism I have of him is that he gave away a few needless penalties. But I figure that wiliness of how far to push referees will come with age and experience.

You know, here's a measurement I would love to see exist: meters made forward on carries not from deep and that did not result in a defender beaten or a clean break. Literally how many meters were made in the crash-and-recycle.