England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[j'nuh]

It's a fair point that Australia are probably stronger than South Africa at the moment.

It's also a fair point that this really hasn't been a vintage 6N. I'd agree with that whole-heartedly. I'd also say we've had some fairly large dollops of luck at times. I don't care too much - nothing could make me overly excited over 5 games so I look forwards to proving ourselves in the future whatever.

Marler - I thought Marler looked much the same as usual... but was disappointed in Vunipola's scrummaging and feel like he missed out on his big opportunity to overtake. Right now, Marler starting and Vunipola benching feels very much the right call.

p.s. Questions raised about moderation issues will be answered in PMs; not trying to hide anything, but I do want to return discussion here to rugby.

Yes, this. Biggest disappointment of the tournament for me, Vunipola's scrummaging.

But I'm still no Marler fan. I still would like to see Mullan given a chance.

On the other end of the spectrum, I was very pleasantly surprised by Farrell at 12. I never thought that he was a liability, as was the case of Twelvetrees, Burrell and Barritt, and the attack flowed with him in the line. He's improved at attacking the line too. I would still prefer him at 10 with a specialist at 12, but if there's an injury and Farrell has to play there, or if Farrell is seen to cover 12 during a game, I'm not so worried any more.

That being said, the 12s Lancaster picked would probably be better under new management. I'm not sure how to set aside the biases against these players set up during the Lancaster reign though. Barritt might be better at attacking the line with guidance from Jones, but can we be sure of it? I don't think this question will come up until one of Lancaster's 12s becomes the form 12 in the Premiership, but if they do, I'm not sure how Jones should handle it.

 

[Thingimubob]

U20 isnt world class potential, they need to play with the big boys

Why isn't it? Plenty of word class players for the big sides have impressed at u20 level before stepping up! The core of this Welsh team comes from a strong u20s team in 2008, couple of others won age grade grandslams too. We've seen Rob Evans and Samson Lee cement themselves as some of the best props in the tournament this year, and they were JWC finalists in 2013. I'd call those two world class potential youngsters stepping up from the u20s to the big boys!

Not completely sure how much you know about Welsh rugby if you dismiss our youngsters like that anyway! Not an immediate worry anyway considering most of our team will be around at least until 2019, potentially a bit further too. I'll admit the transition period will likely be difficult, but confident in the players we've got coming through.

Also, even though it's obviously a bit of a troll post, I have to say it's pretty laughable to rate Wales a "4" alongside a damn poor French side, and below a under performing, injury hit Irish side - especially since we came 2nd and had an overall better 6 Nations than either of those sides.

 

[j'nuh]

Rob Evans was "find of the tournament" for Wales. Very impressed with his step up. Caused massive problems for Cole in the scrum.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

TBH, Mako's lucky to even be on the bench at the moment. His scrummaging is simply not up to it. He can turn what should be a strength into a potential liability - he ends up full length flat on the floor and, especially in the latter stages when he tends to be on, that carries a high risk of penalties. He doesn't threaten the opposition ball and also jeopardises our own.

I don't think Jason Leonard offloaded in 100 tests. But he was invaluable because he was rock solid in the scrums and did his other basics, particularly tackling, very well. Your props should be more piano shifter than player.

Scrummaging can be improved though - Marler started out being better in the loose than the tight but has clearly worked very hard to get his scrummaging better. Probably at the expense of his carrying, but a no1's no1 job is his scrummaging.

Mullan's probably the next cab off the rank. Auterac's stalled this year, but he'll be back. Will be interesting to see how Genge gets on at Tigers as well.

 

[Maverick1987]

Rob Evans was "find of the tournament" for Wales. Very impressed with his step up. Caused massive problems for Cole in the scrum.

Did he ? I seem to remember it being fairly even if not edging Coles way slightly and Cole hasn't exactly been superb either ......

Not saying Evans has been poor but he didn't light the world up imo

 

[RedruthRFC]

Why isn't it? Plenty of word class players for the big sides have impressed at u20 level before stepping up! The core of this Welsh team comes from a strong u20s team in 2008, couple of others won age grade grandslams too. We've seen Rob Evans and Samson Lee cement themselves as some of the best props in the tournament this year, and they were JWC finalists in 2013. I'd call those two world class potential youngsters stepping up from the u20s to the big boys!

I'd look at is as a positive sign, but not a guarantee of future riches. Some members of strong U20 sides will go on to stardom, some will fade into obscurity. Equally, there's nothing to say that there aren't poor sides containing one or two potential stars and that successful sides don't owe their success to overall strength not star potential (although give me the successful side every day of the week, just saying it's not a guarantee).

FYI, neither Lee or Evans played in the 2013 JRWC final. In fact looking at the lineups, it is quite surprising how few of the Welsh sides have broken few at the top level. AFAIK, only Hallam Amos and Rhodri Williams have earned caps. On the other hand, from the England side, Jack Nowell, Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Ross Moriarty and Jack Clifford all now have caps behind them. I'm not sure what conclusions, if any (other than maybe England had more of a vacuum for them to fill than Wales did) to draw from this, maybe it's just a statistical blip, but I thought that it was interesting enough to point out.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Did he ? I seem to remember it being fairly even if not edging Coles way slightly and Cole hasn't exactly been superb either ......

Not saying Evans has been poor but he didn't light the world up imo

My memory of that game is the ref basically giving penalties to whoever put the ball in, so not sure what conclusions can be drawn about how the front rows matched up.

I'd look at is as a positive sign, but not a guarantee of future riches. Some members of strong U20 sides will go on to stardom, some will fade into obscurity. Equally, there's nothing to say that there aren't poor sides containing one or two potential stars and that successful sides don't owe their success to overall strength not star potential (although give me the successful side every day of the week, just saying it's not a guarantee).

FYI, neither Lee or Evans played in the 2013 JRWC final. In fact looking at the lineups, it is quite surprising how few of the Welsh sides have broken few at the top level. AFAIK, only Hallam Amos and Rhodri Williams have earned caps. On the other hand, from the England side, Jack Nowell, Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Ross Moriarty and Jack Clifford all now have caps behind them. I'm not sure what conclusions, if any (other than maybe England had more of a vacuum for them to fill than Wales did) to draw from this, maybe it's just a statistical blip, but I thought that it was interesting enough to point out.

The fact is U20s is a very narrow bracket of 1 year. Professional rugby players are aged from 18 through to almost 40, it's very different being one of the best 19-year-olds in the world and being one of the best of any age.

 

[RedruthRFC]

The fact is U20s is a very narrow bracket of 1 year. Professional rugby players are aged from 18 through to almost 40, it's very different being one of the best 19-year-olds in the world and being one of the best of any age.

Of course, that's my point - being part of a successful U20 side is a good sign for a player's future prospects, but is nothing to say that international glory lies ahead (hence jackass11 is wrong in what he says and that he should look up a definition of potential). Simple numbers make this clear before you try to consider all of the other factors that are to numerous to attempt to list. However I would be surprised if there isn't a correlation between the position of a tier one U20 team in the JRWC and the number of internationals / starters / total caps that it produces in X years time and am suggesting that the Wales side of 2013 bucks that trend.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Of course, that's my point - being part of a successful U20 side is a good sign for a player's future prospects, but is nothing to say that international glory lies ahead (hence jackass11 is wrong in what he says and that he should look up a definition of potential). Simple numbers make this clear before you try to consider all of the other factors that are to numerous to attempt to list. However I would be surprised if there isn't a correlation between the position of a tier one U20 team in the JRWC and the number of internationals / starters / total caps that it produces in X years time and am suggesting that the Wales side of 2013 bucks that trend.

Sorry didn't mean to suggest I was disagreeing, just dropped in to back you up.

I think consistent strength at U20s level would be a good indicator of future prospects for said country, one bumper year not so much.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Sorry didn't mean to suggest I was disagreeing, just dropped in to back you up.

I think consistent strength at U20s level would be a good indicator of future prospects for said country, one bumper year not so much.

I wouldn't say this was a bumper year for Wales though, they have regularly had decent U20's sides. However I agree that it is no guarentee of future quality, England must lead the world in wasting talent between U20 and seniors, although it seems to be improving.

 

[Ospreylian]

AFAIK, only Hallam Amos and Rhodri Williams have earned caps. On the other hand, from the England side, Jack Nowell, Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Ross Moriarty and Jack Clifford all now have caps behind them. I'm not sure what conclusions, if any (other than maybe England had more of a vacuum for them to fill than Wales did) to draw from this, maybe it's just a statistical blip, but I thought that it was interesting enough to point out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe at least one of those players you mention is of the Welsh nationality

 

[Thingimubob]

I wouldn't say this was a bumper year for Wales though, they have regularly had decent U20's sides. However I agree that it is no guarentee of future quality, England must lead the world in wasting talent between U20 and seniors, although it seems to be improving.

I dunno, we're nowhere near as consistent at this level as England, probably due to the smaller pool of players and the opportunities available to them.

We tend to ebb and flow every few years I find. For example, we lost by 90 odd points in 2011 to NZ, then a year later became the first team to beat NZ at the JWC (core of that team came 2nd in 2013 too). Fair few players have gone on to be capped (C Allen, Amos, Lee, R Jones, R Williams off the top of my head). Sam Davies should have had a cap by now too!

This team has a number of promising guys - front row dominated most teams, so excited to see how they step up, Adam Beard, Keddy, Giles, Watkins, Dan Jones, Morgan Williams all looked really promising prospects. Hoping they get regional playing time next season - some already have.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe at least one of those players you mention is of the Welsh nationality

But played U20 rugby for England, I think is his point.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But played U20 rugby for England, I think is his point.

Aye, not sure how proud you should be about one of your future stars getting all his rugby training in, playing age grade for, and continuing to play in, another country.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

England U18 beat Ireland U18 in the first 5 Nations U18 championship

 

[RedruthRFC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe at least one of those players you mention is of the Welsh nationality

He didn't seem to think so when he played age group rugby! Luckily for Wales, England's U20 side isn't its nominated second team. No sour grapes intended, but I'm not sure that he would be getting much of a look in within the England setup, so maybe it was a good idea for him to remember that his dad is Welsh!

 

[Every Time Ref]

I wouldn't say this was a bumper year for Wales though, they have regularly had decent U20's sides. However I agree that it is no guarentee of future quality, England must lead the world in wasting talent between U20 and seniors, although it seems to be improving.

Was speaking hypothetically, don't really follow age grade and have no idea

 

[j'nuh]

tbf, Wales and England aren't directly comparable in their ability to bring players through from U20. A lot of positions in the England senior side was/is open to challengers, whereas Wales has had a somewhat closed set-up for a while now. Although Watson faced more competition in becoming England's first-choice wing, Watson only had to stay in form and wait for the call. Compare to Amos who has to overturn a spot long-held by North/Cuthbert.

 

[Peat]

TBH, Mako's lucky to even be on the bench at the moment. His scrummaging is simply not up to it. He can turn what should be a strength into a potential liability - he ends up full length flat on the floor and, especially in the latter stages when he tends to be on, that carries a high risk of penalties. He doesn't threaten the opposition ball and also jeopardises our own.

I don't think Jason Leonard offloaded in 100 tests. But he was invaluable because he was rock solid in the scrums and did his other basics, particularly tackling, very well. Your props should be more piano shifter than player.

Scrummaging can be improved though - Marler started out being better in the loose than the tight but has clearly worked very hard to get his scrummaging better. Probably at the expense of his carrying, but a no1's no1 job is his scrummaging.

Mullan's probably the next cab off the rank. Auterac's stalled this year, but he'll be back. Will be interesting to see how Genge gets on at Tigers as well.

There's no shortage of bench front rows with less than immaculate set-piece skills getting picked for their impact in the loose, even at international level. I'm fairly sure we've had this argument before so I shan't get in depth, but Vunipola is far from the only example of the model. And Leonard ended up benching behind Vickery and Woodman, whose mobility and ball handling is often cited by Woodward as one of the strengths of 2003.

Why isn't it? Plenty of word class players for the big sides have impressed at u20 level before stepping up!

I'd say that generally yeah, you get a good idea of who's really got it based on U20 rugby. Not perfect though, far from perfect.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe at least one of those players you mention is of the Welsh nationality

For purposes of production from the 2013 team, he still counts.

On the other end of the spectrum, I was very pleasantly surprised by Farrell at 12. I never thought that he was a liability, as was the case of Twelvetrees, Burrell and Barritt, and the attack flowed with him in the line. He's improved at attacking the line too. I would still prefer him at 10 with a specialist at 12, but if there's an injury and Farrell has to play there, or if Farrell is seen to cover 12 during a game, I'm not so worried any more.

That being said, the 12s Lancaster picked would probably be better under new management. I'm not sure how to set aside the biases against these players set up during the Lancaster reign though. Barritt might be better at attacking the line with guidance from Jones, but can we be sure of it? I don't think this question will come up until one of Lancaster's 12s becomes the form 12 in the Premiership, but if they do, I'm not sure how Jones should handle it.

Farrell at 12 was a bit of curate's egg. I thought his work running the ball was abysmal and something both Ford and Joseph would have room to complain about. But some of his interventions were top notch. I've been trying to do stats on who was involved in our tries, and Farrell had a hand in a huge amount. I think I wouldn't mind seeing Farrell again... but that exact same unit looks like an accident waiting to happen.

We also scored very, very few tries for phase play. Which isn't that surprising, but I think it was less than I'd expect. but I think points to being rather deadly with two playmakers to pick off the opportunities from set-piece and turnover but rather blunt when we needed our centres to make room for others.

Also, unless by guidance, you mean steroids, I don't think Barritt's going to become better at attacking the line.

But Burrell (who was called up, remember) might well benefit. And if Jones wants a playmaking 12, Twelvetrees still remains worth at least a cursory look. Ultimately, I'd like him to give both at least a couple of weeks in camp to get a feel for them. I don't think we're rich enough in the position, at the moment, to warrant throwing them away entirely.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Did Farrell make a line break, crash the ball up and cross the gainline or draw a defender and put a teammate into a gap once? I don't remember any. He also didn't defend especially well (although I think the back line as a whole are still learning the system in fairness) or place kick well. I'm struggling to see what he really offered aside from distributing wide quickly to be honest