England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't understand the nostalgia for old rugby, the skill levels were appalling.

That Baabaas "greatest try ever" is ****ing horrible.

Just watched it, hilarious watching the atrocious defences, trying to tackle a player by grabbing them around the neck, players twice on the verge of tripping over their own feet and a forward pass to finish it off

I know it won't happen but it would have been interesting to see a modern side play against a 70's/80's side using rules from their era. It would be an absolute thrashing by the modern side.

 

[nickdnz]

I don't understand the nostalgia for old rugby, the skill levels were appalling.

That Baabaas "greatest try ever" is ****ing horrible.

And the last pass is clearly forward; which is one of many reasons I can't understand it being the "try of the century".

I agree the nostalgia for rugby from before the 1990s doesn't hold much weight. My Dad always used to say "players these days wouldn't last like back in the day against hard men like 'Cowboy' Mark Shaw. Tichie McCaw would be chewed out in a ruck". And I was left thinking...Richie McCaw would literally be the heaviest player on the field...some of the props were still under 90kgs!! Even hard men like Buck Shelford in the early 90s were only just 90kgs.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I do understand some of it, but on the other hand agree with you guys...

There is no logic to some of it - to think that professional players drawn from much larger playing pools don't have significantly superior skillsets that literal amateurs is ridiculous.

Scrum set-up time, and the will to (try, at least) play with ball in hand is not as good now as it was in the past - outside of that there is little I'd look to the past for inspiration from.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The one huge difference with "the past" is that union looked like union, not 15 a side league. No such thing as a defensive line - when someone got tackled all 16 forwards headed into a maul or ruck. If a prop was in midfield it was because he was too knackered to get to the maul. Result was that there was more space outside.

And of course some world class punch ups.

Of course the pro game has increased fitness levels, skills and organisation. But in many respects too much. I quite liked the fact that a copper could come straight off night duty and be playing Wales 6 hours later. But those days are gone.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The one huge difference with "the past" is that union looked like union, not 15 a side league. No such thing as a defensive line - when someone got tackled all 16 forwards headed into a maul or ruck. If a prop was in midfield it was because he was too knackered to get to the maul. Result was that there was more space outside.

And of course some world class punch ups.

Of course the pro game has increased fitness levels, skills and organisation. But in many respects too much. I quite liked the fact that a copper could come straight off night duty and be playing Wales 6 hours later. But those days are gone.

I do think that poor basic skills under pressure is part of the reason the NH rugby is the way it is. In so many Premiership and then international games you see players screwing up 2 on 1s or outside centres that just eat up their wingers space on the outside.

Maybe we have too many teams, causing players of a poor standard to be playing week in week out, I don't know but either way I'd expect every player on the pitch at premiership level to have very good hand under pressure. The fact many England internationals don't is not not acceptable.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I do think that poor basic skills under pressure is part of the reason the NH rugby is the way it is. In so many Premiership and then international games you see players screwing up 2 on 1s or outside centres that just eat up their wingers space on the outside.

Maybe we have too many teams, causing players of a poor standard to be playing week in week out, I don't know but either way I'd expect every player on the pitch at premiership level to have very good hand under pressure. The fact many England internationals don't is not not acceptable.

The lack of basic skills mystifies me - what do professionals do all day long in training?? The truth must be that even by the time they get to academies it's too late, and that these basics need to be engrained at a much earlier age.

Watching the Leicester game yesterday, Tuilagi made a break and then threw a pass that the receiver had to take high above his head, stalling the move. In contrast Ayerza found himself in space, straightened, fixed and drew the last defender before sending Manu on a clear gallop to the line.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I would be absolutely astounded if you put the best amateur players into pro sides and they weren't completely outclassed by everyone else on the pitch.
The whole "pro players have no skills" line is wheeled out all the time.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I would be absolutely astounded if you put the best amateur players into pro sides and they weren't completely outclassed by everyone else on the pitch.
The whole "pro players have no skills" line is wheeled out all the time.

You simply couldn't do that because of the physical differentials.

Its not that they don't have skills at all. Its why the ABs so constantly do the right thing under pressure and we don't.

Would love to see some analysis around the number of genuine try scoring opportunities international teams create and the number they take. I reckon we'd be right up there on the first and pretty low on the second.

 

[Hulkster]

Although it was only for a free minutes at the end, I was encouraged to see Itoje moved to 6 in the Ireland game.

I'm not advocating completely dispensing with Robshaw, but this could give England a whole new dimension.

Itoje at 6, Kruis and Launchbury at lock.

The line-out options in both attack and defence would be incredible, and without wishing to do down Robshaw I think Itoje would offer more both around the park and at the breakdown.

I don't see it happening in this 6N but at least it would appear to be under consideration.

If you then put Kvesic at 7 we'd have several excellent turnover merchants, but I don't see this last step happening.

 

[Willodell100]

Although it was only for a free minutes at the end, I was encouraged to see Itoje moved to 6 in the Ireland game.

I'm not advocating completely dispensing with Robshaw, but this could give England a whole new dimension.

Itoje at 6, Kruis and Launchbury at lock.

The line-out options in both attack and defence would be incredible, and without wishing to do down Robshaw I think Itoje would offer more both around the park and at the breakdown.

I don't see it happening in this 6N but at least it would appear to be under consideration.

If you then put Kvesic at 7 we'd have several excellent turnover merchants, but I don't see this last step happening.

I completely agree with this. Robshaw hasn't played badly at all. He has highly consistent for England but, for me, an Itoje / Kvesic is a much better balance than our current Robshaw / Haskell.

The big mitigating factor is their combined experience at international level but I do feel our backrow balance is not right for some time now.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I would be absolutely astounded if you put the best amateur players into pro sides and they weren't completely outclassed by everyone else on the pitch.
The whole "pro players have no skills" line is wheeled out all the time.

Most of the professional players in England have no basic skills under pressure. Just watch the premiership week in week out.

 

[johnmac99]

most of the professional players in england have no basic skills under pressure. Just watch the premiership week in week out.

wum

 

[johnmac99]

Robshaw and Haskell have started each of the games, to take/give the hits and wrestle at the breakdowns.
In the 2nd half EJ usually replaces them with Itoje at 6, Clifford at 7.

If Launchbury is fully fit then I think he will start with him and Kruis, so Itoje could end up back on the bench.
I agree with Hulkster that our line-out would be far better if Itoje played instead of Robshaw and our scrum wouldn't suffer either.

It will be interesting to see which way EJ will go.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Robshaw and Haskell have started each of the games, to take/give the hits and wrestle at the breakdowns.
In the 2nd half EJ usually replaces them with Itoje at 6, Clifford at 7.

If Launchbury is fully fit then I think he will start with him and Kruis, so Itoje could end up back on the bench.
I agree with Hulkster that our line-out would be far better if Itoje played instead of Robshaw and our scrum wouldn't suffer either.

It will be interesting to see which way EJ will go.

In the probable championship decider (with added RWC revenge...) up against a back row who all have 50+ caps he won't be changing the starting back row in a hurry. Nor will he if we should have a shot at the grand slam. Similarly Kruis & Launch will start at lock if both fully fit. But after that, all bets are off.

One of the papers at the weekend was suggesting that Hughes might play at 6 to keep Binny at 8. That would be back to the happy old orcs on steroids days.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I would be absolutely astounded if you put the best amateur players into pro sides and they weren't completely outclassed by everyone else on the pitch.
The whole "pro players have no skills" line is wheeled out all the time.

I think the point is not to compare amateur to professional players, it's to compare your average journeyman professional in the home nations to your average equivalent down under.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

wum

Not at all. If you watch the premiership you would see the amount of knockons, 2 on 1s , basic passing off both hands that players can't do under pressure.

I don't know what premiership team you support but would you be 100% of your team all finishing a 2 on 1 in a pressure situation. They should all be able to do so as professionals.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't know what premiership team you support but would you be 100% of your team all finishing a 2 on 1 in a pressure situation. They should all be able to do so as professionals.

That's my absolute pet bugbear too, we used to get rollickings if we screwed those up as U12s.

In the Uruguay RWC game Slade put Nowell away for a try by just drawing the man and timing a shortish pass perfectly. It just looked so natural to him (OK it wasn't exactly the ABs in the final....) and I purred at such a basic skill done so well. The number of times though that similar opportunities are blown by poor running lines or bad timing of the pass aren't funny.

 

[bertiec]

Siiiiiiigh, nostalgia, it's not what it used to be.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

It's ignorant to think blitz defence isn't having an impact though. The rushing line speed and lack of space clearly has an impact on handling errors .

 

[dullonien]

A lot of sides will finish a 2 on 1, although some players will still try to beat the last man or try to throw a dummy, which is nonsensical. What a lot of sides/players in the NH especially struggle with are situations where they have a 3 on 2, 4 on 3 etc. The amount of times you see players drifting across the pitch, missed passes thrown, grubbers or players completely ignoring the men outside of them is truly insane.

I fully believe that amateur players of yesteryear would get completely steamrolled nowadays, but imo they were better at identifying overlaps, and using rugby 101, i.e. simple fixing and passing, to put the winger over in the corner.

It frustrated me no end to see relatively simple opportunities butchered. I don't necessarily think it'll all to do with skill levels and execution (certainly is sometimes though), but it's more to do with a lack of identifying the opportunity in the first place. There seems to be a lack of attacking awareness in the NH, which is then compounded by the lack of basic skills.

Seeing a player like Hadleigh Parkes at the Scarlets has really driven this home to me. He's nothing special in terms of skill level, pace or power, but he just seems to do take the correct option more often than not. As such, he's become an integral player for the Scarlets. On paper Scott Williams is the better player in every department, but he'll probably still struggle to displace him in the starting lineup, and it could be the ageing King who makes way.